Brindle color

[Dutchringgirl]

I was in town today and saw three pugs, no not DS, sorry, but one pug was brindle. He was tan with black. Extremely cute I might add too. I didnt think Pugs came in brindle, they dont. I asked my friend who has them and her mom used to breed them. She thinks a breeder was messing around.

So.... How is a brindle coat created? Not the question I had about a Fawn and Brindle throwing what color, but, more of a creationist question. Like how did Zebras get their stripes, same question possibly. Was Brindle a mistake then someone thought it was a cool color?

[Christie M]

I was in town today and saw three pugs, no not DS, sorry, but one pug was brindle. He was tan with black. Extremely cute I might add too. I didnt think Pugs came in brindle, they dont. I asked my friend who has them and her mom used to breed them. She thinks a breeder was messing around.

So.... How is a brindle coat created? Not the question I had about a Fawn and Brindle throwing what color, but, more of a creationist question. Like how did Zebras get their stripes, same question possibly. Was Brindle a mistake then someone thought it was a cool color?

Ummmmm...Judith?? I know brindle is dominant in the fawn vs brindle area of mal/DS. But I don't know if it holds true for pugs/frenchies/bostons.

[alspyce]

In the QH Dunbars Gold, the brindle was the result of twins merging, a true chimera, and the stallion carries 2 sets of DNA. It is also suppose to be a "lost gene" in the GSD. Could it be that the first brindle dogs were chimera?

[Dutchringgirl]

In the QH Dunbars Gold, the brindle was the result of twins merging, a true chimera,

very interesting !

[Marjolein]

In the QH Dunbars Gold, the brindle was the result of twins merging, a true chimera,

very interesting !

uh?

I'm not sure where it came from at all, but the brindle in a labrador or a rottweiler or whatever is always the "kbr" I believe (Judith!! get over here!).
The black and tan is another, so therefore you will only see the brindle in the brown parts of this coloring, since the brindle is black.
I also thought brindle was one of teh more common colorings in dog, probabely because it's dominant over the other colors. In lots of breed you can have brindle, like whippets, labradors, akita, pitbull, am. bull, great Dane etc. etc...

[Kamcia]

where do you have brindle labradors and rotties guys?

here is pretty good site about dog colour genetics - bridnle in this case:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/ge ... rindle.htm


and the others:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm

[Marjolein]

where do you have brindle labradors and rotties guys?

ofcourse most breeders will hide (or worse) the brindled pups, because they are a "wrong" colour, but it all happens

[Dutchringgirl]

here is pretty good site about dog colour genetics - bridnle in this case:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/ge ... rindle.htm

Very interesting! I have never seen brindle show up in as many breeds as the site shows. It can be so subtle too.

[vneerland]

I'm not sure where it came from at all, but the brindle in a labrador or a rottweiler or whatever is always the "kbr" I believe (Judith!! get over here!)

Yeah...you called?
Brindle is brindle, you got that right. Always the working of an allele on the K locus.

The black and tan is another, so therefore you will only see the brindle in the brown parts of this coloring, since the brindle is black.
I also thought brindle was one of the more common colorings in dog, probabely because it's dominant over the other colors. In lots of breed you can have brindle, like whippets, labradors, akita, pitbull, am. bull, great Dane etc. etc...

Black and tan is on another locus: on A=agouti. Brindle is on K (for blacK) K is dominant and goes over the expression of A. So if the A locus shows a black and tan dog, the K locus will color the entire dog brindle, but since black does not show on black, it will only show up on the tan parts.
For our Hollanders, the kbr (= brindle) on the K locus should ideally go over Ay on the A locus, the clear sable or yellow coloring that for example a Belgian Malinois would possess.
Dogs that are typically dominant black (KB) could hide an allele for kbr (brindle) and when two parents with that kbr brindle come together, 25% of the pups could actually be brindle (showing over the tan parts at least) I have seen many breeds that do not 'have' brindle, but that darn well display it.

[Dutchringgirl]

Isnt Black and Tan a drink ?

[Schlussdibusti]

K locus, Agouti, Kbr, Ay, Allele ??? Is this some secret code?

[vneerland]

K locus, Agouti, Kbr, Ay, Allele ??? Is this some secret code?

Yup. Genetic code, that is.

Agouti: The alternation of light and dark bands of color in the fur of various animals, producing a grizzled appearance. Here It is used to describe the appearance of a specific locus.
Ay: An allele on the A(gouti) locus, Ay stands for agouti yellow. The color of a belgian malinois.

K locus: Dominant blacK.
Kbr: An allele on the K locus, Kbr stands for brindle

Locus: The position that a given gene occupies on a chromosome.

Allele: One member of a pair or series of genes that occupy a specific position on a specific chromosome

Chromosome: A threadlike linear strand of DNA and associated proteins in the nucleus of eukaryotic cells that carries the genes and functions in the transmission of hereditary information.

[Marjolein]

Yeah...you called?

jeez...about time!

Black and tan is on another locus: on A=agouti. Brindle is on K (for blacK) K is dominant and goes over the expression of A. So if the A locus shows a black and tan dog, the K locus will color the entire dog brindle, but since black does not show on black, it will only show up on the tan parts. )

I was trying to say just that You will only see it in the "brown areas" because you cannot see black on black

[Marjolein]

Isnt Black and Tan a drink ?

Does it come in Brindle too? I want it!

[GSDNanny]

Whew! Thank goodness Judith, you came to our rescue here.
I find the 'genetic code' absolutely fascinating and appreciate your patience in explaining this so often.

Ok, got one for you. A vet friend has a client whose English Mastiff just had two brindle pups. I have not seen them yet. They know I have the Dutchies so they asked what I know about "reverse brindle."
They swear that one pup is a normal brindle (black stripe over gold) and the other is 'reverse' that the dominant color or base color is black with light brindle. Ever heard of such? I'll probably see them this weekend, they insist. I dont like Mastiffs at least not from this breeder, nasty temperaments and dumb as stumps. Anyway......whatcha think?

[Marjolein]

Ok, got one for you. A vet friend has a client whose English Mastiff just had two brindle pups. I have not seen them yet. They know I have the Dutchies so they asked what I know about "reverse brindle."
They swear that one pup is a normal brindle (black stripe over gold) and the other is 'reverse' that the dominant color or base color is black with light brindle. Ever heard of such? I'll probably see them this weekend, they insist. I dont like Mastiffs at least not from this breeder, nasty temperaments and dumb as stumps. Anyway......whatcha think?

Since Judith tought me a lot of my knowledge on this subject, I could try and help out, untill she has her pc connected to the S L O W texas dial up line again....

I think... no, am sure, that they are wrong. Brindle is ALWAYS black on a base colour. If they think the lighter stripes are the brindle they are wrong. It is probabely just a dog with very broad stripes, so it may appear that the lighter areas are the stripes, this is in fact NOT the case.
Let me dig through some pics...

This dog, Aagje met Strepen, may appear to have very few light stripes on black:

In fact he just has very much and broad black stripes on a lighter base colour. A dog can appear almost black and still be brindled.

This dog, Anouk, has the same genes for brindle (kbr), but in another expression:

She has very few, and much smaller stripes.

As different as it may occur, it is all just another expression of the same genetic code kbr.

[vneerland]

Dang, that's good Marjolein! Pics and all. You rock.
So yes, Denise gets to tell the mastiff people that brindle is always a dark stripe over a lighter background. If the stripe is (very) wide, you get to see a lot more black, if the stripe is narrow, the appearance is much more golden. The wider stripe tends to be dominant (over a narrow one) but the exact inheritance is still unknown.
I know in some breeds, they say 'black brindle' for a dark dog. Gentically, there is no such a thing. It is the same kbr allele at work as a lighter brindled dog. Just painted with a wider brush.

[Schlussdibusti]

Isnt Black and Tan a drink ?

yes, Ale, or as they called it here Allele

[Marjolein]

Dang, that's good Marjolein! Pics and all. You rock.

I knew I would make you proud

[GSDNanny]

Excellent Marj! Great photos for explanation. I did indeed see the two Mastiff pups this weekend. It appears that they will indeed turn out one of each of the photos you posted. One has thinner stripes vs the other with wider. This one also has a black belly. They were told that the thinner striped, lighter bellied pup was a reverse. ??? I gave them the explanation, not that it ultimately mattered because just as their dogs, they are thick between the ears too. (Did I just say that with my 'outloud voice!!) Oh they had 'googled' this reverse business online, yada-yada, and they could sell this pup for big bucks, yada-yada. So they werent real receptive to my explanation. Anyway. Thank you kindly for the help.