DS not for everybody?

[Rauni]

Ok, I found such opinions in one of the welcome topics and while I would say that there is not a single breed that would be suitable for everybody or anybody, I actually find the DS I met (ok, a couple of them, not like dozens ) pretty easy to live with and even suitable for beginners provided the beginners are willing to train them and give them something to do.

Maybe I just got lucky and then probably, I'm not "everyman". But, I would say that Eri is:
- intelligent, but not so inteligent that she would learn all the stupid things in just one repetition (like a pyrshep can )
- would forgive some training mistakes (in a sense that you can unteach or correct something that didn't go quite as planned), unlike a pyrshep ,
- active, but not as active that after one day without work would tear your appartement down, unlike, guess who .

Also, those DS that I've met were all people friendly and most dogs friendly...

Out of my 4 dogs, I would say that Eri is the least demanding and probably would be happy being just a family dog, if she had one decent walk every day and somebody threw her a ball now and then .

So I'd love to hear your opinions and experiences. Would you say that a DS is more difficult, more demanding then other breeds or that it requires a particularly experienced handler or something?

[vneerland]

Your opinion might be related to the number of DS's you have had. There are many that, even with my own experience, are a total handful and I have seen some dogs that became problems due to lack of guidance from their first owners. And also, like you already said: you are not the average owner yourself. I have placed what I perceived as totally easy DS's, and the new owners still needed a good deal of guidance, to get things to fall into place.
I am also convinced a lot of it also depends on the bloodlines. Most of the DS's in the USA are from KNPV background, on average a good deal higher octane than some of the FCI lines.
You are right, of course. There is such a thing as a DS that fits even a green handler. But I have not met many of those.

[CaroleBoaz]

Depends on the dog, and on the owner's prior dog training experience.

[Dutchringgirl]

I would say, in my limited experience, that the DS is not for everyone. Thalie would be fine, though if she had a green handler, but Sadie would not. Sure, they both sleep for hours while I am working, but there are times they are also tearing around the house chewing on each other. I would not get a DS If I didnt have the experiences I had.

[CaroleBoaz]

Agreed. My guy was a very strong-willed puppy. He still has his moments, but he will listen to me.

I am just glad I had 3 totally different dogs (from each other) before him and enough experience to know what to do. Though, I did call in a behaviorist for a consultation, just to be sure I wasn't going in the wrong direction.

[Marjolein]

mmmh, I have seen both bloodlines around here (FCI and KNPV) and I would have to say that they are not dogs for everyone... Even in FCI lines they are not that easy, there are quite some people that still get into trouble with the "easier" lines. I think mainly because they cannot handle the attempts to outsmart the owner haha. Or the inability to be strict and firm. I had some trouble with that... Dingo was not the easiest dog to start with. I always ask puppy-buyers what they have done with dogs before, what they expect etc. I am very carefull putting them with inexperienced owners, it's no use getting them all back And I do not even breed the KNPV lines, those dogs are NOT for first timers at all!

[Rauni]

Ok, so what would be the most often encountered problems with DS?

And how would you describe a perfect DS owner?

[Dutchringgirl]

Ok, so what would be the most often encountered problems with DS?

And how would you describe a perfect DS owner?

I think that would be like talking about kids. Each is different, and just like there are no perfect parents, I doubt there are perfect owners.

[Rauni]

Ok, but if "this is not a breed for everybody" than for whom it is?

You all seem to have broader knowledge of the DS, bloodlines and such than I have, so I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on that as I've only met a couple of DS (my husband met a couple more when he went to pick the puppy ), including Eri's brother as a 7 m.o. puppy and 3 or 4 not related to her. Neither of them was particularly troublesome according to the owners, even though of course there were some challenges (but you get that with any dog).

[CaroleBoaz]

It's not just DS. I have a friend who breeds Tervuren, and some of the puppies are just too smart for their owners. She often has to keep a few puppies until she can find, or give to the right home. One dog she had for 3 years until the owner of one of the siblings took him in.

[Rauni]

Ok, the DS I've met were IMHO much easier than average belgian shepherds (all varieties ) I've seen.

Sorry, but most of you seem pretty vague in your answers.

To give you an idea what I had in mind: Ok, I know Pyrenean Shepherds quite well, I think they are difficult breed and definetely not for everybody, and here is why:
- VERY high energy levels
- VERY intelligent dog and learns REALLY fast, therefore you need to know what you're training, plan your training well and give the dog something to do, otherwise he will find something to do on his own and my bet is you won't like it .
- VERY sensitive breed, so you'd better don't use any harsh methods. They won't work anyway and you might get yourself a very nervous dog.
- very slow to mature, so you need to be patient
- not good with kids, as very reactive and with strong herding instinct
- and there's a couple more things .

And if I were to describe perfect owner, I would look for someone active, with lots of time, great sense of humour (you're gonna need that with a Pyrshep) preferably familiar with clicker training, preferably interested in some dog sport or at least regular biker/ hiker etc., preferably with older kids not toddlers etc. Of course, each case should be evaluated seperately, for instance I wouldn't say that single elderly ladies are perfect owners for a mallinois, yet I do know a particular elderly lady who is in dog training for 40 years, is passionate about tracking, search and rescue, has lots of free time and owns a very well-behaved mallinois .

I think that would be like talking about kids. Each is different, and just like there are no perfect parents, I doubt there are perfect owners.

Naaah, I don't get such talking. I know lots of people who are perfect dog owners, have lots of time, give their dogs proper nutrition and veterinary care, walk them regurarly, train them, have fun with them etc. Their dogs are happy and well-behaved, that speaks for itself. The way I see it, every dog has some needs and if those needs are satisfied, the dog is in perfect home. And vice versa.

[Dutchringgirl]

Thats ideal, not perfect. If it was perfect, no one would need training.

[Rauni]

Yeah, you can play with words or try to answer my question.

Substitute "right" or "appropriate" for "perfect" if you like .

[Dutchringgirl]

I did answer your question. DS are not for everyone. Your answer can pertain to any breed. If you want specifics then talk to a breeder. My parents have had BH all of their lives, Thalie would be a good match for them but Sadie would not. Each dog is different so it is hard to say who a DS would be good for. So I beleive its not who would DS be good for, Its who will be good for "this" dog.

[vneerland]

Yeah, you can play with words or try to answer my question.

Substitute "right" or "appropriate" for "perfect" if you like .

Pardon me here, but people are trying to answer the question you posed. And the answer is not good enough for you? There is no one size fits all, and the answers given were pretty much all correct.
I know English is not your first language, but you don't come across as very respectful to someone who is trying to have a conversation with you. Many of us are like our dogs. You yank that leash hard enough, and we will come up it at you. Please be mindful of the good intentions of those that take the time to answer you, even if it does not appear to be the right answer in your mind.

[Raven]

Rauni,

I really think that you have your answer, perhaps just not delivered in a bullet-by-bullet format. It's great, by the way, that you want this kind of information before embarking on the DS (or any other) experience.

I'd say that many of the bullets you wrote about the pyrshep would equally apply. If you look at the DS as a whole, they are a rather tough breed with high intelligence, a thought-process, high energy and require a lot of physical and mental stimulation; they require a confident (and consistant) owner and one who leads by respect (they truly do not appreciate unfair or disrespectful treatment). If you look at the individual dogs, as you know, one will have a higher prey drive than another or be better around kids or....

My two adopted DS (one deceased, one not): problem children, but each with different personalities and dispostions and pasts. Each one was treated as an individual in regard to training, but the fundamentals remained the same...just approached differently as needed.

I don't know if it's because I adopt the "problems" (though I don't think so), but my experience with them--slight compared to others on this forum--is that you're always "working" with them. Every minute in my house is training/work/reinforcement in some form or another (it's second-nature...not a bad thing, in my opinion). Perhaps not all are like this, but both examine opportunities to improve their rank. They know their place, but it doesn't prevent them from wanting to move up. Others would be able to tell you better if some DS are more comfortable, or eventually resign themselves, with not being "the boss."

[Choochi]

I think maybe a part of the problem you are having with accepting other people's answers is because your own experience with the breed is limited and more importantly limited only to the easy going examples of the breed. Your description does not fit either of my dogs at all. Both are high energy, extremely smart, learn new behaviours fast, some times in as little as one or two repetitions and those lessons STICK to them like glue in some cased to the point of obsessive compulsive nature. If they want some thing, they will try, try, try, try, and then keep trying some more. If you are a novice person and don't know how to handle such a persistent and very high energy pushy dog properly, you will easilyy cause more problems and this will be a recipe for a complete disaster. Add to that the fact that to both of them their default behaviour is.. if you don't like it, don't understand it, or like it and want it, or it frustrates you, or it's too big or too small, if it made a sound, if it moved, if it looked at me, BITE IT! They move really fast, they react very quickly, and they make their own decisions just as fast about what they want or don't want. That can be a lot to handle for some one who does not instinctually have good reaction time to dogs and more importantly knows how to react properly fast.

There are people out there who are plain and simple incompetent. If you haven't met them, consider yourself very lucky. I personally work in the pet industry and meet all sorts of dog owners who absolutely boggle my mind with their lack of common sense and lack of knowledge on how to handle their dog in the most basic situations. I know people who have trouble handling my little maltese when I leave her with them for a weekend who is a total sweet heart, but in their hands turns into a bossy privileged spoiled brat when given the chance. Imagine if instead of my Maltese, I handed one of my Dutchies to them, it would be a disaster within an hour!

I have met Dutchies who I think just about any good dog person with a good head on their shoulders would be fine with, and I have met a couple who really should not be handled by any one but the most experienced handler because they are very reactive and highly aggressive, and pretty much hate the world around them.

In every breed there is a range of personalities, some dogs are more energetic, some more laid back, etc. When majority of the breed is easier to handle by the majority of people, it's usually regarded as a breed any one consider. But there are breeds out there where the majority of the members of the breed would not be an easy fit (Rottweilers, Dobes, Vizslas, JRTs) with the average new dog owner for all sorts of reasons and those breeds in general are considered not for the first time dog owner. That does not mean that all the dogs of that breed are impossible for a newbie to handle, but most are. It's a generalization and as such, it is impossible to come up with a specific list that will apply to all members of that breed.

[Raven]

Rauni,

I just caught something in your post that hadn't clicked earlier...your statement about DS being easy to live with and suitable for beginners. That's a scary statement to me. Dogs end up in trouble oft times because of people. Others may disagree, but I would never recommend a DS (and some other breeds in general) to a person who has no or little dog experience. I wouldn't even recommend them to the person who has experience but takes an unevolved approach to training--not just for the treatment of the dog, but how the DS will react...and this inevitably ends up poorly for the dog and causes more problems.

And to what Choochi said about her dogs learning something new first or second attempt. Mine, too. Therefore, you have to take care in how to teach them something, because they do learn so quickly and something could be taught that you don't want. (I know where this has happened with some owners.) Then, it's in the vault--that behavior is locked in, good or bad. So, looking at the beginner trying to train and handle such a smart, quick and highly powered dog...I don't think it's a good idea. Especially when the breed is also generally known to go up the lead in certain situations.

But, you say that you've had a lot of experience with a difficult breed. So....

[Choochi]

Actually Raven since you said that, I certainly would not consider my two to be easy to live with, not unless you're completely desensitized to two busy bodies who constantly want to do some thing and spend half the day at least as brindle cyclones. They constantly have to have some thing to do, whether it's wrestling together, chewing some thing, they settle eventually but they are by no means easy going in the house.

[Schlussdibusti]

Wouldn't it be great if all that energy could be "channeled" into doing some work around the house, like vacuum, cleaning windows, doing dishes, etc....