Bites when regripping toys

[PepperSnycart]

Hi everyone, hopefully someone can help me with my mouthy DS. Pepper is really ball/stick driven. She goes insane as soon as one is picked up (whining, jumping, etc). We have gotten her to be at least able to sit and wait for the ball/stick to be thrown, but intermittently we've been having a problem with her mouth.

If we lean over to pick a stick up from the ground, she immediately races/sneaks over and snaps to get the same stick we're interested in. It doesn't matter if she already has one or not. It's dangerous because she really is aggressive about picking up the object. I don't think she's aiming for our hands, she doesn't growl, and her ears aren't back, she just wants the stick/ball BADLY. Today she actually got her whole mouth over my hand as I was picking up a stick and she caused some pretty significant pain and broke the skin. I screamed and she just looked at me like, what was that for? Come play!

She does something similar when she's regripping, and she'll get a hand. I'm just sick of it, and after getting bit today, I don't even want to play ball/stick with her anymore until she learns some respect. Any suggestions?

[Christie M]

Probably the most common method of teaching respect is to play formal tug first. Teach an appropriate out in the methods that were described in the "out" thread. I like Ivan's methods. But like him, I believe that not all dogs learn to be respectful of a dead toy and I am just fine correcting a dog if they aren't responsive to the "funner" way.

In establishing this game, you are teaching the dog when they can and can not bite something in your hands. For me, unless I have released my dog and offered them access to something, they don't get to have it. They are never allowed to snatch something out of my hands. I suppose, its easier to teach from day one, but in your case, no play off of a leash right now, and if she goes to grab something that you haven't released her to have, you can physically prevent it with the leash.

Then, when certain rules of play have been established, then if they make a mistake there are no second chances. I get bit, GAME OVER. I make a big deal of it and even put them up/crate them immediately. They are VERY capable of capping their drive and paying attention to what is in their mouths and what isn't. They learn fast to pay attention if all fun stops when they screw up.

[alspyce]

I find "Get Back" and "Wait" commands very helpful, along with "Leave It" or sometimes just a good strong NO!
Lyric knows she has to wait ( without being formally told), when I put down food, open the door,open the drawer with the dog toys, go out the door,etc. She will automatically sit or down while she waits for me to let her know IF what is happening at the time is any of her business or not. (Like at feeding time--she can't eat from the bowl until I say so--but she can sit and look at it until I tell her it's OK.) Everything here is mine until I decide to share it. (Or change my mind and take it back.) I think folks sometime don't start early enough to teach what I call "Manners".
The door to the outside is also used only by permission, the dogs are NOT to go through it just because it's open.(I often have it open to clear the heat out when the wood stove gets too hot or back drafts smoke into the house.Or I burn dinner.)
I don't think it hurts for them to learn self control, and of course, praise/reward for having made a good decision by deciding to follow the rules.

[felixone123]

The door to the outside is also used only by permission, the dogs are NOT to go through it just because it's open.(I often have it open to clear the heat out when the wood stove gets too hot or back drafts smoke into the house.Or I burn dinner.)
I don't think it hurts for them to learn self control, and of course, praise/reward for having made a good decision by deciding to follow the rules.

ok, so how did you teach them NOT to go through the open outside door? I think this would be hard to teach.

[Dutchringgirl]

Its not as hard as you think to teach to sit untill the door opens, or for what ever it is they want, or you want to give them.

I went through all of the same things with sadie. For the door. as I go to the door and Sadie usually gets so excited she spins, rushes, etc. I tell her to Sit, then put my hand on the door, if the but comes off the ground I dont do anything, stay still, she will usually have eye contact with me, at this point she knows to sit again, then I turn the handle, at any point, her but comes up, I freeze, I dont move until the but goes down, If at the beginning , they dont get it, I reinforced with the sit command. Then I turn the handle, as long as the but stays, I procede. You may have to open the door in slow motion until they get the idea. If the door is open and the but comes up, the door closes, I repeat until I can hold the door open and buts are on the floor, then they wait for the release command.

For the toy stuff. Sadie was horrible and would grab. I would hold a toy, put my other hand out in the stop position, hold the toy, and , being quick, would put it closer and closer to her nose and if she went for it, WAIT. Then I would get it right to her nose, I taught her "TAKE" and she cant take it until i say "TAKE". I lost some blood in the process, go slow and careful.

You an use the idea for anything, if the but comes up, I freeze or they dont get what ever it is they want. If Sadie can learn self control, anyone can.

[felixone123]

omg - we are teaching Odin that now. Just the way you explained!! I am so relieved that we are on the right track. I just didn't put 2 and 2 together about the open door. He is doing really well and can be stubborn at times. And, I love it when he looks at me with those beautiful brown eyes.

I am also working on the toy stuff, but I am going to try your suggestions. Still having a hard time with the out/drop it. His grip on the item is so hard and firm and he will wait it out hoping you will give up. We NEVER give up and let him win. I really don't like giving "treats" so it's been taking longer to work. He does drop the item, but it can take him up to 10 min to do this.

[alspyce]

The door to the outside is also used only by permission, the dogs are NOT to go through it just because it's open.(I often have it open to clear the heat out when the wood stove gets too hot or back drafts smoke into the house.Or I burn dinner.)
I don't think it hurts for them to learn self control, and of course, praise/reward for having made a good decision by deciding to follow the rules.

ok, so how did you teach them NOT to go through the open outside door? I think this would be hard to teach.

Not hard, teach No/Wait, whatever your comand is, and never let them go through a door first unless you ask them to. Then you have to watch them/set them up a few times; leave the door open (into a fenced area,Just in case) with a leash on them--tell them wait and you go out, (they will usually stand at the door and watch me) If they go out anyway correct them, bring them back in very firmly, repeat the comand and go out again. Praise/treat when you come back inside but not right in front of the door, I make them "get back" first. When they get good at that I just start leaving it open while I'm sitting inside watching them and they usually pay no attention to the door. If they look out I just tell them no. They get it pretty fast--even the JRTs.
Very handy when you're going in and out several times getting firewood, groceries, etc.

[Dutchringgirl]

Very handy when you're going in and out several times getting firewood, groceries, etc.

Oh yes, when I go in and out, I dont need two dogs getting tangled in my legs and stuff. I also have their beds in the kitchen during the day so they know " on your bed" they go there and stay.

The "out" of the toy was the hardest with Sadie. She didnt want to give it up, mostly she was afraid Thalie would take it.

[Schlussdibusti]

I lost some blood in the process,

Since I have Marco, I always carry some bandaids.

Tori's dad (Marco's Malinois girl friend) takes some blood thinner medication and bleeds very easy. One day on the beach, we played with the dogs and Tori must have gotten him. He didn't noticed and must have wiped his face and pants. When I looked at him, he looked like he had been slaughtered. He had blood all over his face, the pants were all bloody. People made a big circle around us and our "killer" dogs.

[felixone123]

that is too funny.

[Dutchringgirl]

That is too funny Eva !!!!!

[Choochi]

Its not as hard as you think to teach to sit untill the door opens, or for what ever it is they want, or you want to give them.

I went through all of the same things with sadie. For the door. as I go to the door and Sadie usually gets so excited she spins, rushes, etc. I tell her to Sit, then put my hand on the door, if the but comes off the ground I dont do anything, stay still, she will usually have eye contact with me, at this point she knows to sit again, then I turn the handle, at any point, her but comes up, I freeze, I dont move until the but goes down, If at the beginning , they dont get it, I reinforced with the sit command. Then I turn the handle, as long as the but stays, I procede. You may have to open the door in slow motion until they get the idea. If the door is open and the but comes up, the door closes, I repeat until I can hold the door open and buts are on the floor, then they wait for the release command.

For the toy stuff. Sadie was horrible and would grab. I would hold a toy, put my other hand out in the stop position, hold the toy, and , being quick, would put it closer and closer to her nose and if she went for it, WAIT. Then I would get it right to her nose, I taught her "TAKE" and she cant take it until i say "TAKE". I lost some blood in the process, go slow and careful.

You an use the idea for anything, if the but comes up, I freeze or they dont get what ever it is they want. If Sadie can learn self control, anyone can.

I do pretty much the same with the exception that I stand by the door until they sit then put my hand on the door handle and proceed. If a butt comes up, door shuts my hand comes off the door handle. Then they have to sit to earn my hand on the door handle, and keep sitting and give me eye contact for the door to open. So they learn that yes they have some control and can get what they want as long as they give me what I want.

It took some time at first with Athos as he would get frustrated, barked, ran around me in a circle, scratched on the door, even left the room. I would just stand there and wait quietly until he offered a sit which he has learned previously gets him cookies so he would eventually offer it then he clued in that's what starts the door game! Don't try this if you have a puppy you know has to go out and pee badly, that's a bad time to practice this. lol In those cases I would grab him by the collar and lead him out the door, or when he was smaller I would carry him out, but he still wasn't allowed to just run out.

You can do the same thing with a stick or toy, but have your dog on a leash. If this is really bad at the moment, and she nails you, for sure let her know that is unacceptable, give a leash or vocal correction and put her away.

Here's a good game you can try playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc

I do this with all my dogs, it works great to teach self control and a release word. You can start very basic and get quite complicated with the distractions as you progress. With time you can have your dog's favourite toys and food scattered all over the floor and they will keep their eyes on you and do obedience with you ignoring their distractions. This has worked as a great drive builder for me for my corso, making him do the attentive heel around tennis balls on the ground which he is nuts for, as well as the FR food refusal exercise which we are working on.

[PepperSnycart]

Thanks so much the the input, as always! Sounds like it's a patience and lack of understanding the "rules" that I'm dealing with here. She's definitely in a defiant mood these days- won't even sit when I ask her to, which is usually an automatic thing. Aye. She's 7 months and it seems like she goes through phases, and by the time I post about it, the phase has ended (thankfully). I think this is going to be a longer fix.

I started today with her in the living room, on a leash. I made her sit and "wait" while I through pieces of hot dog a few feet away. She had to sit and wait until I said "ok" (requiring her to be quiet and not pulling on my, of course). She had a few hiccups but actually did very well.

I took her on a walk and made her sit and wait while I threw a stick. This took a lot more physical restraint, but eventually she would "wait" without feeling pressure on her collar.

I'm going to take it step by step, and really emphasize the importance of the "wait" command, even when going out the door.

When she gets frustrated, she'll run away from me, bark at me, or do laps around the living room. This is her favorite thing to do when it's bedtime for her OR when she steals an article of clothing or ours. We don't chase her so she's not encouraged to keep running. We can usually wrangle her in with peanut butter, which I fear might encourage this behavior... aye, if only I were a professional dog trainer!!

Has anyone ever sent their dog to a trainer for a week for similar issues and general obedience training?

[Dutchringgirl]

When Sadie was 7 months she went through a defiant stage. Lets just say it didnt last to long

Its alot of consistency and patience.

[Sugars Mom]

Here's a good game you can try playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc

I do this with all my dogs, it works great to teach self control and a release word. You can start very basic and get quite complicated with the distractions as you progress. With time you can have your dog's favourite toys and food scattered all over the floor and they will keep their eyes on you and do obedience with you ignoring their distractions. This has worked as a great drive builder for me for my corso, making him do the attentive heel around tennis balls on the ground which he is nuts for, as well as the FR food refusal exercise which we are working on.

Great techniques on this video, thanks!

[leih merigian]

... I was getting all ready to explain the It's Yer Choice game, then decided to click on the link first to see what it was...so glad I did!

Another surprise... I know the trainer in the video

anyway, this is a great game, easy and fun to teach and play around with...

[Choochi]

Has anyone ever sent their dog to a trainer for a week for similar issues and general obedience training?

Naaa... you're better off working with a trainer in person and learning how to do these things yourself. If you ever consider a board and train option, make sure you REALLY know the trainer well and really trust them, there have been quite a few horror stories with "trainers" taking advantage of people like this. Plus even once the dog is trained, you still have to learn after wards or the dog will still act the way they did with you. A well behaved dog has far more to do with how they are handled by their person then what they know. You can have some one do a beautiful job of training your dog and they will still blow you off and not listen to you if you don't know how to handle them and implement that training.

[felixone123]

great video - thanks!!

[alspyce]

[quote="PepperSnycart"]
I started today with her in the living room, on a leash. I made her sit and "wait" while I through pieces of hot dog a few feet away. She had to sit and wait until I said "ok" (requiring her to be quiet and not pulling on my, of course). She had a few hiccups but actually did very well.

I took her on a walk and made her sit and wait while I threw a stick. This took a lot more physical restraint, but eventually she would "wait" without feeling pressure on her collar.

I'm going to take it step by step, and really emphasize the importance of the "wait" command, even when going out the door.
quote]

Are you releasing her with the "OK" and allowing her to go get the object herself? I would make her wait until I picked it up and gave it to her myself. That will stop any "mad dash" to retrive and re-enforce that YOU have decided to reward her/allow her to have it. Same with the stick, I would hand it to her with a command like "Take it". Later if you want to play fetch you can send her out with the take it command.

[alspyce]

When she gets frustrated, she'll run away from me, bark at me, or do laps around the living room. This is her favorite thing to do when it's bedtime for her OR when she steals an article of clothing or ours. We don't chase her so she's not encouraged to keep running. We can usually wrangle her in with peanut butter, which I fear might encourage this behavior... aye, if only I were a professional dog trainer!!

Has anyone ever sent their dog to a trainer for a week for similar issues and general obedience training?

Second reaction:
This tells me she needs to go back on the leash at all times. Running away can become a very dangerous thing, and I would not be bribbing her to come to you because you ARE playing a game that she is winning! I like the command NO. It means stop no matter what they are doing! Follow it with another command, like come, drop it , down, etc.
If you need a trainer, get one who will teach YOU to train your dog. Someone else can train and earn the dogs respect, but that won't automatically be transfered to you, and that person is never going to live with the dog. You need to be the leader and stop letting her think she runs the show.