MR Question

[leih merigian]

I just watched a MR3 routine yesterday and think this sport looks like a ton of fun. I wish there were an MR club near me in central VA...

Nevertheless, knowing nothing about this sport, I was curious about the search and escort part. The dog I watched in this video had been trained to escort by putting his head in the decoy's crotch, either from the front or behind. What I am curious about is whether there is any real life reason for this style of escort?

I understand that the handler can train this exercise using more than one style (tho I don't know what they are ), and that this head-in-the-crotch style may mean the dog is less likely to miss the decoy when s/he tries to escape, but my curiosity has to do with is this style of escorting used in the real world at all? Or, is it just something that handlers came up with as one particular way to approach this exercise?

I don't know much about the various protection sports, tho they all interest me. I would guess I'm more familiar with SchH than the others, in a very high-level, general sense. I understand that SchH was originally developed as a breed test for GSDs. I find myself wondering if the other protection sports were developed for similar reasons, tho for different breeds? KNPV, I know, is more police dog related than breed related (or I think I know that ), but French Ring? And Mondio...I think I read someplace that it was started as a combination of the best of the other protection sports?

Just curious...

leih

[Christie M]

I think that the between the legs transport is rooted in French Ring. In ring sports, your dog looses points if the decoy is able to "escape" and get any distance before being re-bitten. Everyone is always trying to train their version of the perfect guard to give the dog the best advantage of catching him quickly.

[leih merigian]

I think that the between the legs transport is rooted in French Ring. In ring sports, your dog looses points if the decoy is able to "escape" and get any distance before being re-bitten. Everyone is always trying to train their version of the perfect guard to give the dog the best advantage of catching him quickly.

OK, so that means it's simply related to the sport itself, rather than reflecting some kind of police technique in the real world.

Thanks, Christie!

[FoxTal Dogs]

Christie is correct in that it is a position taught to take advantage of the fastest possible response to the decoy's escape. It is purely a sport thing. In police work you would NEVER allow your dog to be that close to a suspect in any sort of "escort" and most definately not between his/her legs! That having been said, in MR (and FR) the search for the decoy prior to the escort is exactly that ... a search for a DECOY. You have other people wandering around the field wtihout protective equipment and the dog is ony searching for the human encased in 30 lbs of french line/jute. duh.

I did not teach Quinn the escort until he finished the MR1. I had been cautioned that the decoy may try to "walk off" with your dog in an escort, and this is exactly what happened to another MR1 competitor at the Leerburg trial last weekend.

[icvanstra]

I had been cautioned that the decoy may try to "walk off" with your dog in an escort, and this is exactly what happened to another MR1 competitor at the Leerburg trial last weekend.

So what do they do with the dog when they walk off with it?

What does this do to your scoring?

[leih merigian]

... in MR (and FR) the search for the decoy prior to the escort is exactly that ... a search for a DECOY. You have other people wandering around the field wtihout protective equipment and the dog is ony searching for the human encased in 30 lbs of french line/jute. duh.

I did not teach Quinn the escort until he finished the MR1. I had been cautioned that the decoy may try to "walk off" with your dog in an escort, and this is exactly what happened to another MR1 competitor at the Leerburg trial last weekend.

I'd been wondering about that search thing, too, Deb, so glad you mentioned it. There were people all over the field, mostly on the sidelines, but still within the fencing. So, I guessed (as you confirmed) that the dog is taught to search for the person in the heavy suit.

I don't know enough about MR to understand your last comment . I don't know what "walking off" with your dog means, nor why that would be more effective on a MR1 dog, as opposed to a MR2 or 3 dog, if the dog is taught the escort. Do MR1 dogs not need to do this part of the exercises?

leih

[FoxTal Dogs]

No, in MR1 you do not have to do the Search and Escort. In the Defense of Handler, decoys will approach you as you move and carry things, etc, and sometimes if the dog has learned that the escort position is fun or believes they are supposed to be there, they will "stick" with the decoy instead of moving with the handler, and the decoy will then see if the dog leaves with him, being sucked into an escort. In the heeling, once you begin an exercise, you cannot repeat commands and you stop, start, are asked to carry and move items, etc, and if the dog loses focus on you and instead stays/leaves with the decoy you lose all the points for the exercise. Considering it is a 30 point exercise (out of 200 for MR1/160 to pass), that can be significant.

[leih merigian]

Well, in that case, I'd be with you! I'd not teach that escort for the MR1 for sure.

Thanks for the info. I really love learning about the details of some of these sports. I wish so much I had the resources (physical and financial) to do more than one sport! But, I love agility and it's something I can do in large measure on my own. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the protection sports, tho. Always have. And, if I could, I'd go MR for sure.

[Casey]

You have other people wandering around the field wtihout protective equipment and the dog is ony searching for the human encased in 30 lbs of french line/jute. duh.

True, however, during the KNPV exams I witnessed last summer, I also always saw two people in civilian clothes on the field (the judges) and all dogs go straight to the guy in the huge black suit... and these dogs are supposedly trained to also bite civilians.
Actually, a very wise lady whose name shall not be mentioned once explained me that you can prepare your dog for the real work but still when it gets to biting a person without the suit you can never really know what to expect. The dog may bite, or not bite, or bite very differently from how he bites a normal decoy.

that said... during a dog show I once witnessed a demonstration of police dogs. Supposedly a kidnapper (in bite suit) was harassing his victim (in normal clothes), throwing him on the ground. Then two active police dogs (malinois) were send from the sides to attack the kidnapper. Without hesitation both... went for the victim. The kidnapper then had to save the unprotected victim by moving like an idiot to make the dogs let go of the victim and bite him. The victim was able to stand up and leave the scene walking but I guess it hurt


Personally, I train Koko to do her guards with her head close to the crotch of the decoy, but not between his legs, and the escort behind the decoy more or less to his side. However I love to see dogs do guards and escorts for their head between the legs of the decoy. I really wonder what the decoys feel when they are escorted like that

Kees

[vneerland]

True, however, during the KNPV exams I witnessed last summer, I also always saw two people in civilian clothes on the field (the judges) and all dogs go straight to the guy in the huge black suit... and these dogs are supposedly trained to also bite civilians.
Actually, a very wise lady whose name shall not be mentioned once explained me that you can prepare your dog for the real work but still when it gets to biting a person without the suit you can never really know what to expect. The dog may bite, or not bite, or bite very differently from how he bites a normal decoy.

Pesky KNPV judges. I wonder why they cannot just stay behind the sidelines, safely barricaded off. Surely one can judge the dogs work from that disatance?
Having an unsafe dog on the field in KNPV leaves the handler with the duty to inform the judges. If the dog is deemed too dangerous to be around, it cannot be judged and will be dismissed.
I second the comments that were made about the real (street) bites being a different ballgame alltogether. It takes practice, but I suspect volunteers will be hard to find.

that said... during a dog show I once witnessed a demonstration of police dogs. Supposedly a kidnapper (in bite suit) was harassing his victim (in normal clothes), throwing him on the ground. Then two active police dogs (malinois) were send from the sides to attack the kidnapper. Without hesitation both... went for the victim. The kidnapper then had to save the unprotected victim by moving like an idiot to make the dogs let go of the victim and bite him. The victim was able to stand up and leave the scene walking but I guess it hurt

That is the oldest K9 training trick in the book! Many many dogs will go for the person who is down. One can train around that. It might have been a good idea to do so before the demonstration? We tell our handlers in training after the exersize about the statistics of the dog going for the man who is down. But with a good decoy you can pull the dog in before they make the wrong choice.

Personally, I train Koko to do her guards with her head close to the crotch of the decoy, but not between his legs, and the escort behind the decoy more or less to his side. However I love to see dogs do guards and escorts for their head between the legs of the decoy. I really wonder what the decoys feel when they are escorted like that

I assume the decoy feels lucky that he is wearing his cup that day? Though I still would not want to get bitten on the inside of the thigh? Especially by a hard biting dog.

[Casey]

I second the comments that were made about the real (street) bites being a different ballgame alltogether. It takes practice, but I suspect volunteers will be hard to find.

So your opinion hasn't changed

Kees

[vneerland]

You could not have been talking about me. Not if you were using words like 'wise' and 'lady'
:

[Casey]

You could not have been talking about me. Not if you were using words like 'wise' and 'lady'
:

That is why I thought it was best for your name to remain unmentioned...