Will be prepared for a dog in 2 years! Questions?

[DogGirl_95]

You don't have to train in FR. And you will have to train your Dogo, so a DS is still cheaper. Unless there's something about Dogo's that you don't need to train or work with them, but I doubt it. I know plenty of people with DS who have them as pets and don't do anything other than the obedience that all dogs need. Maybe you just want a bigger dog?

I will train my Dogo but only in Obedience and any tricks or activities he does will be done at home for free, or pretty close to it. For example I can build a spring pole for my Dogo and let him have at it, Teach him to climb our Playhouse ladder and slide down the slide, do some weight pulling in a field, and Teach him to track and retrieve an item like car keys. I don't neccesarily have to go somewhere or join a club to train my Dog to do stuff.

I could purchase a puppy from a FCI IF the dog would be 80 pounds at least, not 70 or 75. Or a working breeder whose puppy doesn't have the right drives for protection. Does this happen often though? If the Dutch I got only needed some Obedience training and I could do the rest of that training I listed above then that means... . Ok I won't jump to conclusions, again. And I still have not met either breed so I might not like Ds or Dogo. And yes weight/size does matter to me even though I have said I would PREFER not NEED a X-Large one. A 80 pound DS would be fine.

[LyonsFamily]

Why don't you try fostering one (or both) of these breeds first? I totally understand the desire for a puppy, my last 4 show setters were puppies, and I was around your age when I got the first, but I'm completely over that right now. I had a weak moment, and was put on the waiting list for a Tervuren puppy from a great breeder after a ton of research, but then I remembered the work puppies are, and I didn't want all of that on top of having my first dog like this. Luckily a good trainer friend of mine brought me to a training facility to see a Malinois and DS in foster care, and I snapped out of it.

We just rescued a 2 year old DS, and he's a lot of work even though he's already trained and is starting to mature. I know a lot of rescues are always looking for fosters, and it's a short term commitment to really try out a breed.

DogGirl_95 said:
$200 a month if I feed RAW and if I feed a very good quality kibble it will be much less. That is $2,500 every year (on RAW).

I'm relatively new to this forum, so I'm not sure what everyone else feeds, but we're spending about $45 a month for raw, maybe a little more if you count the fish oil he gets, but I take that after working out too, so we split it. If it's a chicken month, it's about $30, but I'm an obsessive sale shopper, chicken quarters at $0.49/lb, mixed in with other large meats, and organs are our staple. We also use a lot of pig and cow hearts for $0.99/lb (Odin would like to know what else he could get if he upgrades to the $200 option )

Here's a few good facebook groups regarding Raw diets. In the docs section of Raw Feeding, there is a ton of invaluable resources to read about. https://www.facebook.com/groups/261761471359/ https://www.facebook.com/RawChat We feed prey model, and that's what those groups promote. I think others on here do BARF, but you're still going to get the same general costs.

The $200 prices makes sense if you're doing a prepackaged Raw such as Stella and Chewy's, but for a dog this large, especially if you're getting a Dogo, it's going to be a lot cheaper, and easier to cater to your specific needs if you do it homemade.

[DogGirl_95]

I really would, I think that beats research and meeting in people becasue you get to really see the dog. I need to learn more about training and get some money in the bank which will be in a month or two. The only thing that "holding me back" is most people would not feel comfortable placing a DS/DS mix or even a Mal/mal mix in a inexperienced home.

$45 a month for Raw and his supplements? I am pretty sure meat will not be that cheap around here, but I can look around, and be even more expensive once gas prices really start getting high. I was looking at those little cornish hens, Tyson or Perdue I think, that weigh about 2 lbs and I would feed him one half in the morning and one in the afternoon with some organ meat. What is prey model? You give your dogs a live chicken Lol?

I would like to say I am trying to but as many breeds down on "the list" as possible. I have been looking at the American Bulldog from Scott/Performance/Standard lines that have a muzzle as long as a Dogo. Not as much dog agression runs in them and good breeders are here in the US where I can actually meet them. I still want a DS though way more than an AB or a Dogo. Since I will be able to get a job this year, and I will be saving as much of it as possible, I might have enough money for FR training. But that us a very big maybe. I need to contact the trainer/club I was interested in and see how much they charge and stuff.

[LyonsFamily]

Prey model simply means feeding Raw meat, organs, and bones, in a ratio that they would normally find in thei prey. So for example, each meal would be 80% muscle meat, 10% bones, 3-5% liver, and 5% other organs, usually I do kidney. This doesn't have to be everyday, just balanced over time. Odin gets loose stools if we do liver everyday, so he'll get larger pieces twice a week. If you can feed a whole animal, (not live) the ratio should be there, over time, if you're switching between animals regularly. Some people give dead animals with the fur and feathers on, most do what is referred to as Frankenprey, a mixture of different animals and body parts to hit the ratio.

Right now, I feed about 1.75lb total a day, but that's on a high side and won't be permanent. If I get chicken backs, they still have bones in and kidneys attached, so I only need to add liver to that. They're $0.49/lb and liver is $0.99/lb. Check out those facebook groups now, before you even get a dog, to find out the best methods and places to shop. I live in downtown Chicago, where everything is expensive.

The problem with cornish hens is that they are too small to give dogs the whole workout of tearing into the meat, and they're high in bone content; they are about 39% bone if the giblets and necks have been removed. It's an ok food to start with or use every once in a while, but they also benefit from red meats, with lesser bone contents.

Another issue with Purdue or Tyson brand cornish hens is that they're almost always ENHANCED. A solution, containing salt, is added to the bird to make it taste better, or be more tender. Enhanced meat causes a ton of issues with dogs including vomiting and diarrhea. Purdue and Tyson also usually remove the organs, so you'll need to add them back in to get all of the nutrients.

When feeding raw, butchers and hunters are really your best friends. I buy everything a month or 2 at a time and freeze it.

[DogGirl_95]

Oh ok yes that was what I am aiming for then is the Prey model. I heard you do 80-10-10 or 70-20-10? Is there any real ratio or do you just do some experimenting to see what is the best for your dog? And I thought liver was part of the organ part or is that a whole nother category itself? How large is your dog? Do you feed 2-4% of the dogs bodyweight? I won't be feeding chicken only he will get other meats like Turnkey, Beef, Fish, and something exotic everyonce in a while. Do Tyson and Perdue put salt on all their meats on how do you tell if they do? I tried talking to my local Publix butcher but they said they don't give out scraps so I gotta try other places.They used to and everyonce in a whbile Gunner would get a hudge meaty bone for free!

[CaroleBoaz]

A 80 pound DS would be fine.

If you are looking for an 80 pound dog, you don't want a DS. Sure, some people breed them that large, but they are not supposed to be. Bigger is not always better. JMO

[LyonsFamily]

DogGirl_95 wrote:
Is there any real ratio or do you just do some experimenting to see what is the best for your dog?

There is a real ratio, but it's about balancing over time, everyday doesn't have to meet the ratio, just the overall month should be. We shop for a month's worth of food, and come home, cut it up/portion it into 30 days worth, and put it back in the freezer. Some days he's getting Chicken, some days pork hearts, some days chicken with liver, basically whatever is pulled out to thaw the night before, because I know the freezer total is balanced, so when we get done, everything will add up.

Some dogs will be tweaked a bit too. You can tell by the stools. White/dry means too much calcium, therefore bone should be reduced. Too much organ can produce loose stools. You can also tell by their weight and coat appearance if they're lacking anything.

And I thought liver was part of the organ part or is that a whole nother category itself?

The liver is part of it, but it should only make up half of the organs, to give more variety.

How large is your dog? Do you feed 2-4% of the dogs bodyweight?

Odin is about 50lbs right now. He has a little more to mature/fill out, and is underweight. I'd like him at a muscular ~60lbs, maybe a little less. We feed 2lbs/day right now, so that's 3.3% of his target weight.

Talk to your butcher about ordering things in bulk. You can usually get pork and beef hearts (fed as muscle meat, not organ) for cheap and that's a red meat. If you order in cases, the price drops. You can get venison from hunters, another great novelty.

You can tell if they add salt to chicken if the salt is over 100mg/4 oz. Enhanced meats also sometimes say, more tender, flavor added, broth solution, etc. Every meat package should have a nutrition label, and if it doesn't the meat department has to have that information available.

CaroleBoaz wrote:
If you are looking for an 80 pound dog, you don't want a DS. Sure, some people breed them that large, but they are not supposed to be. Bigger is not always better. JMO

So true, look what happened to the GSD. Breeders make them bigger and bigger. Severe angles, hips issues, not something I'd ever want to see in a DS. Since the Malinois has become AKC registered, I've seen larger dogs as well there. It just doesn't look right. These guys are compact utility dogs, not massive things.

[Flying Dutchman]

Like everyone else here I do applaud you for doing your homework and research but I do hope you know what you are getting into with a DS from KNPV lines. I have one and I'll be frank...it's taken my entire life with dogs and a lot of previous experience with other high-drive dogs to prepare me for Ku. I have several friends who are professional dog trainers and who have working-level Malinois and DS remark on just how much drive he has and how he's "a lot of dog."

We rescued Ku 10 months ago and I wish you would have seen him then because he was the result of someone getting a super high-drive DS and then falling through on training, etc. He was an absolute mess and it has taken months and months of work to get him to where he is today, which is still far from perfect. I worry about some of the statements you made such as in regard to their prey drive:

Which I will have to train out as much as I can

I don't think it's about training "out" or away their drive...it's about learning to control their drive through a mutually respectful relationship and bond. And all dogs vary, regardless of breeding or genetics. You just never know what you are going to get or what kind of issues that will come up over the life of the dog. You have to be prepared to deal with anything and everything.

I'm not necessarily trying to discourage you but I do think you need to see a DS that has not been refined through training at expert hands. It's easy for people to be attracted to these dogs when watching them work, etc. But it's another thing to live with one 24/7 and be responsible for their education. Just be sure that you are at a stage in your life when you are ready to make that kind of change for the next 12-15 years. Keep doing your research, meet some dogs, foster if you can, and make the best decision for both the dog and you.

[DogGirl_95]

A 80 pound DS would be fine.

If you are looking for an 80 pound dog, you don't want a DS. Sure, some people breed them that large, but they are not supposed to be. Bigger is not always better. JMO

Youre right, Iv'e seen that the most agile and active dogs are compact medium sized dogs, like 70 lbs. And I hope breeders don't start to strive for dogs too large to efficiently do their work. When I first was researching I saw the weight and was like Nope, but then I saw that some kennels had larger DS's and Mal's. So that's when I became really interested in them.

[DogGirl_95]

DogGirl_95 wrote:
Is there any real ratio or do you just do some experimenting to see what is the best for your dog?

There is a real ratio, but it's about balancing over time, everyday doesn't have to meet the ratio, just the overall month should be. We shop for a month's worth of food, and come home, cut it up/portion it into 30 days worth, and put it back in the freezer. Some days he's getting Chicken, some days pork hearts, some days chicken with liver, basically whatever is pulled out to thaw the night before, because I know the freezer total is balanced, so when we get done, everything will add up.

Some dogs will be tweaked a bit too. You can tell by the stools. White/dry means too much calcium, therefore bone should be reduced. Too much organ can produce loose stools. You can also tell by their weight and coat appearance if they're lacking anything.

And I thought liver was part of the organ part or is that a whole nother category itself?

The liver is part of it, but it should only make up half of the organs, to give more variety.

How large is your dog? Do you feed 2-4% of the dogs bodyweight?

Odin is about 50lbs right now. He has a little more to mature/fill out, and is underweight. I'd like him at a muscular ~60lbs, maybe a little less. We feed 2lbs/day right now, so that's 3.3% of his target weight.

Talk to your butcher about ordering things in bulk. You can usually get pork and beef hearts (fed as muscle meat, not organ) for cheap and that's a red meat. If you order in cases, the price drops. You can get venison from hunters, another great novelty.

You can tell if they add salt to chicken if the salt is over 100mg/4 oz. Enhanced meats also sometimes say, more tender, flavor added, broth solution, etc. Every meat package should have a nutrition label, and if it doesn't the meat department has to have that information available.

CaroleBoaz wrote:
If you are looking for an 80 pound dog, you don't want a DS. Sure, some people breed them that large, but they are not supposed to be. Bigger is not always better. JMO

So true, look what happened to the GSD. Breeders make them bigger and bigger. Severe angles, hips issues, not something I'd ever want to see in a DS. Since the Malinois has become AKC registered, I've seen larger dogs as well there. It just doesn't look right. These guys are compact utility dogs, not massive things.

Thanks for the information. Buying 30 days worth at one time then cutting it up into everday portions sounds simple. I'm going to buy some Raw books online soon. Funny thing is the GSD is my all time fav dog, but the way their low backs are right now is just ridiculous! Even thought it sounds like I'm changing dog breeds like I change outfits, I'm just begging to really look all the breeds out there. I came across the Beauceron and it is a real nice dog. Think of a DobexGSD cross. They are bred for a size I like, 85 lbs. I'm still going to visit my local clubs and meet some police handlers if possible to see some working DS's and Mal's.

[DogGirl_95]

Like everyone else here I do applaud you for doing your homework and research but I do hope you know what you are getting into with a DS from KNPV lines. I have one and I'll be frank...it's taken my entire life with dogs and a lot of previous experience with other high-drive dogs to prepare me for Ku. I have several friends who are professional dog trainers and who have working-level Malinois and DS remark on just how much drive he has and how he's "a lot of dog."

We rescued Ku 10 months ago and I wish you would have seen him then because he was the result of someone getting a super high-drive DS and then falling through on training, etc. He was an absolute mess and it has taken months and months of work to get him to where he is today, which is still far from perfect. I worry about some of the statements you made such as in regard to their prey drive:

Which I will have to train out as much as I can

I don't think it's about training "out" or away their drive...it's about learning to control their drive through a mutually respectful relationship and bond. And all dogs vary, regardless of breeding or genetics. You just never know what you are going to get or what kind of issues that will come up over the life of the dog. You have to be prepared to deal with anything and everything.

I'm not necessarily trying to discourage you but I do think you need to see a DS that has not been refined through training at expert hands. It's easy for people to be attracted to these dogs when watching them work, etc. But it's another thing to live with one 24/7 and be responsible for their education. Just be sure that you are at a stage in your life when you are ready to make that kind of change for the next 12-15 years. Keep doing your research, meet some dogs, foster if you can, and make the best decision for both the dog and you.

Wow Ku must have been really messed up. I'm still learning about drives and such. I have a massive amount of worked lined up for me to help get prepared. Meeting Clubs/Breeders/Owners/Poilce k9's, Buying tons of Leerburg videos, Training some of my neighbors unruly dogs, "perfecting" Gunner's Training, visitng the dog park often just to meet more breeds, and seeing if I can take a 6 week K9 handler course that officers and military personnel get. I would never just go off what everyone just said online and watching videos, that's just assuming that I can handle a dog like that. If I am not discouraged by the amount of perparing, money, training, and time it will take to train this type of dog I think I will like the breed. I will come back and tell you guys everyonce in a while how I like Dutchies and Mali's after I get to finally meet them, which breed i'm going to get, etc.