Hi, new to forum - MN hobby farm owners

[hawksnest]

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Hi, I'm new to this forum. We are in MN near the Twin Cities and WI border on a 13 acre hobby farm and have Copper who will be 2 in December. We rescued him from the Humane Society via an Alabama shelter last December. The Humane Society said he was a shepherd mix but they couldn't tell us more...not even the vet knew what breed he was. Because he originally came from the south we had been thinking that he was a plott hound mix. Although on the hound forum, people said he is a DS. I guess it's the pointy ears and the brindle. So here we are!

We chose Copper from the other dogs at the shelter because of his fierce look, unusual markings and friendly nature. We live in a semi-rural area and wanted to have a protective looking dog. Our previous dog was the best dog ever and lived to 15...he was a rottie-lab...another shelter dog.

Copper is on the small side, about 52 pounds and a short sleek coat. He is as fast as a gazelle and has a loud bark. He is a smart cookie--knows how to unzip backpacks and take kids lunch boxes out (been through several of them). Copper has a black tongue and an insatiable appetite and can open cupboard doors and has helped himself to loaves of bread, crackers and even a giant container of 32 fiber bar from Costco. We finally put an end to the cupboard cruising by kenneling him while we are out of the house.

The biggest reason I am here on this forum is to learn more about this breed and how we can train Copper to be the best shepherd farm dog he can be. If we can train him to be protect our chickens and property and take care of gophers and possum, that would be a dream. He is currently unable to be off leash and has an intense prey drive to hunt and kill anything that moves outside. In the last month he has killed 8 of our chickens and one duck after escape episodes. The last time was on Halloween when he killed 5 of our chickens and the duck. If anyone has any experience in breaking dogs of this nasty trait, I'm very open to hearing how you handled it. I am currently receiving help from the trainer on this website and after just a day of sessions, I'm seeing improvements in Copper's behavior. stopchickenkillerdogs.com Still, we have our work cut out for us.

Stop by and visit us on our farm facebook page here:
http://www.facebook.com/hawksnestfarm

[johninny]

WELCOME! love your farm. the poor chickens tho. don't even want to imagine how much fun he must have had. my old DS always treated hen houses like movie theatres - where one goes for entertainment. he seemed to value them for their ability to amuse him. if they failed in that job, he would occasionally bark encouragement at them. so i am afraid i am no help, but i know you came to the right place to find much knowledge of the DS. good luck with Copper and your farming. i grow most of my own food but you have a beautiful farm with really impressive mustard greens going on there.

[leih merigian]

Hi and welcome,

My DS leaves chickens alone, but that's only because I've been working on it with her since she was a baby, and she has a solid "leave it." (She's two now.)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think it could be very difficult to encourage your dog to kill certain prey animals, while leaving the chickens alone (Iet alone guarding them). The true guardian breeds are raised with their herds from babyhood, and live with their flocks.

I don't know anything about that trainer you're working with, but I wish you luck and will be eager to hear about it.

[hawksnest]

WELCOME! love your farm. the poor chickens tho. don't even want to imagine how much fun he must have had. my old DS always treated hen houses like movie theatres - where one goes for entertainment. he seemed to value them for their ability to amuse him. if they failed in that job, he would occasionally bark encouragement at them. so i am afraid i am no help, but i know you came to the right place to find much knowledge of the DS. good luck with Copper and your farming. i grow most of my own food but you have a beautiful farm with really impressive mustard greens going on there.

Thanks for writing! That is funny about your dog looking at hen houses like movie theatres! Maybe we should show our dog movies. Our girls love making movies and we actually have an annual film fest in August to show homemade films.

This past summer we began partnering with a Hmong farming family. They farm about 3 acres of our land for the Minneapolis farmer's market and St. Paul's Hmongtown market. We are in awe of their energy and capabilities and have learned alot having them here. Not just about their culture and history but about many asian vegetables (such as loofah and bitter melon) that we were not familiar with before. We are excited to possibly host cooking classes next year.

I do have my own garden...a nice fenced in area to keep the deer and rabbits out. The nice thing about this time of year is that our dog can run and play in this area and he just loves it! He can't do this during the summer growing season. I sort of lost enthusiasm for gardening however when I saw what they were doing with our 3 acres. Made my efforts seem rather wimpy!

[hawksnest]

Hi and welcome,

My DS leaves chickens alone, but that's only because I've been working on it with her since she was a baby, and she has a solid "leave it." (She's two now.)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think it could be very difficult to encourage your dog to kill certain prey animals, while leaving the chickens alone (Iet alone guarding them). The true guardian breeds are raised with their herds from babyhood, and live with their flocks.

I don't know anything about that trainer you're working with, but I wish you luck and will be eager to hear about it.

Thanks for writing! You are lucky to have been able to work your dog from a baby. Can your dog be off leash around them too? Do you have cats or other barnyard animals? We are thinking of getting goats or a guard llama someday.

I would love to see some pics of your dog with your chickens to give me hope! I print it out and put it up on my bulletin board to inspire and give me hope. Our last dog Chui (Chewy) a rott-lab was 12 years old when we moved to the farm. He didn't give a hoot about the chickens or cats and even took naps in the dirt next to them. But he was an excellent vole and gopher hunter! He's a tough act for Copper to follow.

Copper last night was very good with our barn cat Peanut who likes to rub up next to Copper. Peanut knows exactly what he's doing...taunting him. Copper just stands there, shaking like a leaf grappling with whether to chomp his head off or play with him!

The trainer Bryan Pulliam from the video has been very very helpful so far. He does not use negative training methods which is our preference. Since working with him and Copper, I am encouraged and hopeful. (It's getting the rest of my family on board that is difficult!) More and more people are getting chickens in our area. It makes sense that there ought to be more direct and positive ways to deal with this issue!

[johninny]

the Humong are very impressive people. these remote mountain tribespeople had to deal with so many layers of language - their own, then vietnamese, then french/english, but their culture was very strong. i had the honor many many years ago of spending a little time with the then young crown prince. it is a tragedy how that culture and community were so torn apart.

[Marjolein]

welcome

[hawksnest]

welcome

Thanks Marjolein! Wow, your dogs are very impressive and happy looking! Ivla especially looks so much like our Copper. Finally, I feel like we have found a home here in this forum now that we know more about what Copper's breed is. Now I am wondering now if Copper is a purebred runt of the litter and that's why he was abandoned.

[hawksnest]

the Humong are very impressive people. these remote mountain tribespeople had to deal with so many layers of language - their own, then vietnamese, then french/english, but their culture was very strong. i had the honor many many years ago of spending a little time with the then young crown prince. it is a tragedy how that culture and community were so torn apart.

wow, neat Johninny...The stories they've told us are imprinting on our whole family. They use mainly their own hand-crafted tools they brought from Laos. They are the hardest-working and people I know, and very proud of the food they grow. My own grandparents were sustenance farmers. We do have some language barriers, but their children grew up with English so when they are here we talk alot.

I don't think they like dogs though!

[vneerland]

Welcome Hawksnest person. Looking forward to your farm reports with well behaved brindle.

Would you mind adding a signature to your post? User control panel, left top of page. All it does it enable us to see who we are speaking to M/F since we cannot seem to keep the who is who straight otherwise.

[leih merigian]

Can your dog be off leash around them too? Do you have cats or other barnyard animals?

I would love to see some pics of your dog with your chickens to give me hope!

We have two cats, and she's fine around them, tho they have no interest in playing with her, which she'd love.

Here you go (as you can see, no leash):









I agree that positive training is the way to go; she has a very high prey drive and has had to be taught to leave animals alone . Also, one must be ever vigilant in case she needs a reminder .

[hawksnest]

Welcome Hawksnest person. Looking forward to your farm reports with well behaved brindle.

Would you mind adding a signature to your post? User control panel, left top of page. All it does it enable us to see who we are speaking to M/F since we cannot seem to keep the who is who straight otherwise.

You bet! Done! Sorry, I'm new at this!

[hawksnest]

Can your dog be off leash around them too? Do you have cats or other barnyard animals?

I would love to see some pics of your dog with your chickens to give me hope!

We have two cats, and she's fine around them, tho they have no interest in playing with her, which she'd love.

I agree that positive training is the way to go; she has a very high prey drive and has had to be taught to leave animals alone . Also, one must be ever vigilant in case she needs a reminder .

Wow! This is great to see. Looks just like our dog out there...Hard to imagine right now. I am hopeful we can get there...

[hawksnest]

Can your dog be off leash around them too? Do you have cats or other barnyard animals?

I would love to see some pics of your dog with your chickens to give me hope!

We have two cats, and she's fine around them, tho they have no interest in playing with her, which she'd love.

Here you go (as you can see, no leash):

I agree that positive training is the way to go; she has a very high prey drive and has had to be taught to leave animals alone . Also, one must be ever vigilant in case she needs a reminder .

Thanks for sharing the pics! My goal now is to raise a new larger flock in the spring and get Copper on board to think of them as his babies to watch over. A good goal don't you think?

Btw, I think I understand now why the dutchies have black faces...check it out. Took this pic today in our fenced garden.

[vneerland]

Thank you very Hawksnest. But we still don't know if you yourself have a name too? I know it is silly, but do you mind adding your own name to the signature as well? It is totally innocent on our behalf. Just knowing if we are talking to a male or female seems to help envision things.

Regarding the critter proofing of a brindle. I have many dogs and enough other critters to have to remain vigilant. I feel confident I could control the situation better if I had just one or two dogs, but helas. As it stands, I have mixed results with my dogs. One loved ducks. For breakfast, lunch or dinner. He would swim for as long as he could get away with, diving after every diving duck. If the water was low, I'd have to take an alternate route back to my house, or leash him up on the last stretch. He would surely have killed them.
Then there are the cat killers. I did not want cats, they moved in by their own invitation but I hate to see them killed. Yet, some of the dogs wait for the chance that I would loose them out of my sight and get to work.
Yet there are others that have extremely good prey drive, who leave the feathers and furs alone because they know it is not allowed. The latter category consists of the seasoned dogs, the workers, the ones who know that what I say is the rule around here, no matter what.
It can be done, but depends largely on your dog, and the amount of time you can invest in it. Glad you have enlisted help already and looking forward to Coppers adventures.

[hawksnest]

Thank you very Hawksnest. But we still don't know if you yourself have a name too? I know it is silly, but do you mind adding your own name to the signature as well? It is totally innocent on our behalf. Just knowing if we are talking to a male or female seems to help envision things.

Regarding the critter proofing of a brindle. I have many dogs and enough other critters to have to remain vigilant. I feel confident I could control the situation better if I had just one or two dogs, but helas. As it stands, I have mixed results with my dogs. One loved ducks. For breakfast, lunch or dinner. He would swim for as long as he could get away with, diving after every diving duck. If the water was low, I'd have to take an alternate route back to my house, or leash him up on the last stretch. He would surely have killed them.
Then there are the cat killers. I did not want cats, they moved in by their own invitation but I hate to see them killed. Yet, some of the dogs wait for the chance that I would loose them out of my sight and get to work.
Yet there are others that have extremely good prey drive, who leave the feathers and furs alone because they know it is not allowed. The latter category consists of the seasoned dogs, the workers, the ones who know that what I say is the rule around here, no matter what.
It can be done, but depends largely on your dog, and the amount of time you can invest in it. Glad you have enlisted help already and looking forward to Coppers adventures.

Sorry Judith! I guess I take direction about as well as our dog.

Sorry to hear about your ducks. I loved our ducks. We had a cayuga and a orpington/cayuga mix. When our first duck died, the other duck started acting just like a chicken. Do you have horses? It looks like you are in a stable in that one pic. How do your dogs do around them? We boarded horses for several years when we first moved to the farm. When the weeds took over our pasture, we realized we had no idea how to manage pasture and had to start over, that's when we decided to try the veggie farming. It's been great so far!

Another question for you as a moderator: is there a forum topic thread for hobby farm owners and the chicken problem? or a cat problem? If not, can one be created? I would be willing to document and share my experience working with Copper through the assistance with Bryan Pulliam's video. (stopchickenkillerdogs.com) Our local trainer http://www.warrensdogstop.com has agreed to learn the system and work with us. I am cautiously optimistic and my kids are happy. After Copper killed our last bunch of chickens and our beloved duck Oiva, I was ready to take him back to the Humane Society.

Paula

[johninny]

i certainly hope that Copper does not lose his family, but in that horrible event, there are organizations that specialize in shepherds, in working dogs, in herders, and, perhaps in Copper's case, DSs. these organizations are easily found in an internet search [ ds rescue, shepherd rescue, etc ] and for DS would be NADSR - north american dutch shepherd rescue. most all such organizations put great effort into evaluating the nature and the needs of the dog - and then finding the right long-term match for adoption. also, many of these groups are foster-based, which avoids the extra horror these super intelligent dogs can experience in a normal shelter/pound environment. and finally, of course,there is the guidance and concern of this group. good luck in your training.

[johninny]

especially for Paula with all your mix of animals, but everyone who has not seen it might really enjoy and may be inspired by catching the NATURE show that first aired on PBS last night - ANIMAL ODD COUPLES. here in ny, at least, it is being repeated a 1am tonight. get out the recorders.
over in the 'spotting' section, i noted some sort of 'working dogs awards' show [??] on hallmark channel 8pm tonight. no idea what that will be like.

[hawksnest]

especially for Paula with all your mix of animals, but everyone who has not seen it might really enjoy and may be inspired by catching the NATURE show that first aired on PBS last night - ANIMAL ODD COUPLES. here in ny, at least, it is being repeated a 1am tonight. get out the recorders.
over in the 'spotting' section, i noted some sort of 'working dogs awards' show [??] on hallmark channel 8pm tonight. no idea what that will be like.

Thanks for the heads up on those programs! I'm going to set my recorder.

[feraloup]

Welcome to the forum! Copper is a handsome boy! I'm following your posts with great interest as I'm trying to get into homesteading, myself.

We have our first flock of chickens, we got them in the spring and they are just starting to really hit their stride with laying, a large garden area, and I'm working on getting hubby-to-be to agree to letting me have a couple of goats. (*lol* He wants to farm, all-in, I just want to homestead, and he's saying he wants me to be able to have the livestock I want, just not YET, *grin* I'm wanting to start sooner.). I also have a horse and work part-time at his barn for board.

We're looking at getting a Dutch Shepherd puppy in the very near future, with an eye to socializing it with farm critters from an early age.

Congrats on all your hard work to make Copper a good farm citizen! I look forward to updates on your progress.