Mondioring

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:40 pm

Went to see a mondioring training today:

Was not as good as expected

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:28 pm

Why not? And who is te dutchie?

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:28 pm

Why not? And who is te dutchie?

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:28 pm

dutchie is an x, not sure what lineage, can look it up.

Dunnow, saw a little French ring once, that was nicer, more action, better grips. Maybe it was also that I did not understand all the excercises, and am used to seeing different type of biting

Those dogs only grab the suit, no leg or arm in it. I know that that is the idea in this sport, but was not that...great.
Even when I like the programm's idea, I would prefer watching KNPV anytime.

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:43 pm

I think, the female in the pics is this one:

BRN 16464

Extremely nervous female, not my type of dog. Worked like a rocket tho...but she would drive me insane

the male, I'm really not sure, could be this one, but he was handled by someone else...not sure if this is him actually:
BRN 14451

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:28 pm

I don't like the top half of either dog's bloodlines, just not my type of dogs.

From the little bit I've seen of both sports, it seems like FR is much faster paced than MR. To me it's like FR is built on speed, and I really enjoy watching it. Not so sure how well my dogs would do it in though, but I'm hoping to find out.

I train with a bit of a multisport group whenever we have a chance, and there are a few people there who trial/train specifically for FR. Their dogs have great full grips with very quick entries but it's also something that they have put a lot of emphasis on in training. The training director comes from a police K9 background, so maybe that has a bit to do with the technique they use.

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:47 pm

Marjolein wrote:Dunnow, saw a little French ring once, that was nicer, more action, better grips. Maybe it was also that I did not understand all the excercises, and am used to seeing different type of biting Those dogs only grab the suit, no leg or arm in it. I know that that is the idea in this sport, but was not that...great. Even when I like the programs idea, I would prefer watching KNPV anytime.

Apples and oranges Marjolein.

Both bite-sports, but a different mind set and a different emphasis.
Where KNPV is about stopping a man (patterned for true Police work) Mondio has no such aspirations. It is a sport, creating a versatile dog, fast on the call of, good to handle a distraction, and great with an esquive (escape/evade, whatever you want to call it) I think part of the shallow bites are probably a training issue. And in part also because it does not score (higher) and a very involved dog (on the bite) is possibly harder to redirect. (off the bite again)
The bites on the suit only is pretty typical for most ring sports though. Protect the decoy who has a flimsy (compared to KNPV) suit due to his need to be able to move fast and natural.
I too prefer KNPV, by far. But I try to keep an open mind and find merits in the various ring sports too.

MeganBays wrote:I don't like the top half of either dog's bloodlines, just not my type of dogs.

I wonder how you know? Those dogs are in Germany, from what I can tell. For me, there is virtually nothing on that paper that would warrant a label. Or maybe you are looking at Rudie Pegge as a great grandfather, who gets to put in his 1/8 into the offspring. That leaves 7/8's to be determined and for a dog that I have never seen, I would not dare to have an opinion either way (beyond Marjolein's evaluation, but she has seen them)

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:36 pm

on the male, looking at his picture on bloodlines again, I'm pretty sure it is not the dog I saw...

Cannot find anything on the web either, sorry.

On the apples and oranges, I know that

But why did I like FR then? If it was only about the grips, I would not have liked FR either, but I did. And compared to KNPV, IPO or SchH grips are a different world too, I still like both sports. Somehow this was too slow for me, I'm not even saying I do not like the sport as a whole, I have seen a group in Berlin too, they were a bit more exciting, even when there was no helper, so no real bitework, the day we were there.

On the positive side, there were a few things I did really like, the way they rewarded their dogs was good. Some had a toy in their pocket, like I have, but others had it lying around somewhere on the field. On every release the dog got to race over to the toy and play with it for a couple of seconds, then an "out" followed and immediately the command for the next excercise, the excercises were usually quite short, so the next release would follow soon, the dog remembered exactly where he had dropped the toy and raced back to it. The tension this created, I liked.
Also, I liked the commands at distance, same as in FR. They had a square where the dog was put in a stay, together with it's toy,but he could not touch the toy. Then a series of random commands followed sit, stand, down, sit, down, sit, stand etc. and then suddenly the release and the dog got to grab the toy that had been lying next to it all the time. That looked very nice.
And, they hardly corrected mistakes, they just gave no release and repeated it untill it was good, then gave the release. No e-collars, which seems to be rare these days

But I do not think any of these things are typical for MR, I have seen this in other sports (agility, IPO) too.
So, all in all, even when I was a bit dissappointed and will not drive there again soon, it was, as always, educational to watch others train their dogs

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:18 pm

vneerland wrote: I wonder how you know? Those dogs are in Germany, from what I can tell. For me, there is virtually nothing on that paper that would warrant a label. Or maybe you are looking at Rudie Pegge as a great grandfather, who gets to put in his 1/8 into the offspring. That leaves 7/8's to be determined and for a dog that I have never seen, I would not dare to have an opinion either way (beyond Marjolein's evaluation, but she has seen them)

In certain bloodlines I like what Rudie Pegge can add, depending on what the other half of the breeding with Pegge has in it (and of course the actual dogs themselves). I have/had a few dogs with Pegge lines in them, and trained myself/trained with other that own dogs from that line quite a bit when I first became involved in working dogs, (which has been about 5 years). The Pegge lines were very popular when I began in the area, and I was able to see several work in person multiple times.

I was referring more to Barnabas than to Rudie; as he's from a mostly IPO bloodline Malinois bitch. And then Barnabas was bred to what appears to be an NVBK Malinois lined female, so for me with what I've had/seen is dogs with similar lines to these doesn't mesh up with my personal tastes. It seems as if it's a common theme for them to be a very high prey drive dog, somewhat hectic, and not always the best nerves. Granted the dogs I've had personal experience with could have all been flukes. Barnabas and his offspring could be fantastic, as I've never directly worked with any dogs from Barnabas but if I were looking for a new dog and just viewing bloodlines as a base to start my search I would skip these as nothing really stands out for me.

But for someone else it could be exactly the type of the dog they want, and he obviously appeals to a certain crowd as it looks like Barnabas has many children/grandchildren in the IPO ring. Just the same as someone could look at the bloodlines of my dogs, and be immediately turned off as that type of dog isn't traditionally known to produce what they like.

Marjolein, was the group you watched trained a purely positive group? Is it common for clubs to be like that now in your area?

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:45 pm

MeganBays wrote:Marjolein, was the group you watched trained a purely positive group? Is it common for clubs to be like that now in your area?

No they were not, they used prongs, whips etc. But It was all a bit fairer to the dog, they took their time. I have seen many IPO people train...ehm...without a plan, would be the word. Just use all the tools you can get, if that didn't work, sell the dog 'cause it's obviously no good

Someone once told me "the more tools, the less knowledge in the handler". I am not against e-collars etc. But I am sick of every stupid idiot using one, without even reading the manual. I actually saw the stupid joke everyone makes about e-collars happening:

"hey, did I turn it on? I'm not sure..."

*pushes button-dog jumps and squeeks*

"ow, yeah, it;s on"

I must say tho, that so far, I have not seen many people use e-collars in French ring. And they do compete in the higher levels. I am impressed by that, considering all the obedience they do. Mmmh, maybe that is the reason they do not need an e-collar as much, because the emphasis is more on the obedience from the start?

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:43 am

MeganBays wrote:In certain bloodlines I like what Rudie Pegge can add, depending on what the other half of the breeding with Pegge has in it (and of course the actual dogs themselves). I have/had a few dogs with Pegge lines in them, and trained myself/trained with other that own dogs from that line quite a bit when I first became involved in working dogs, (which has been about 5 years). The Pegge lines were very popular when I began in the area, and I was able to see several work in person multiple times.

I was referring more to Barnabas than to Rudie; as he's from a mostly IPO bloodline Malinois bitch. And then Barnabas was bred to what appears to be an NVBK Malinois lined female, so for me with what I've had/seen is dogs with similar lines to these doesn't mesh up with my personal tastes. It seems as if it's a common theme for them to be a very high prey drive dog, somewhat hectic, and not always the best nerves. Granted the dogs I've had personal experience with could have all been flukes. Barnabas and his offspring could be fantastic, as I've never directly worked with any dogs from Barnabas but if I were looking for a new dog and just viewing bloodlines as a base to start my search I would skip these as nothing really stands out for me.

But for someone else it could be exactly the type of the dog they want, and he obviously appeals to a certain crowd as it looks like Barnabas has many children/grandchildren in the IPO ring. Just the same as someone could look at the bloodlines of my dogs, and be immediately turned off as that type of dog isn't traditionally known to produce what they like.

Since I have been involved in (KNPV) dogs -which is several decades- I have seen many dogs of many bloodlines. One thing I learned is that all dogs remain individuals. There are good and bad specimen in all bloodlines. It is true, of course, that there may be some lines who's overall traits fit a person better than some other lines, but I have never been brave enough to openly critique dogs that I have never laid eyes on, regardless of their family tree.
And yet, I have heard people make statements like 'best stud ever','hardest hitting male', 'most serious working dog' without personal knowledge of whatever else is out there. Or just the reversed and negative labels without actually ever laying eyes on the dog they are talking about, but just going on perception or gossip.
I have no opinion about the dogs that Marjolein saw at work. I never even heard of the kennel.
They might possibly not be the kind of K9 material that I would have in mind for my personal collection, but I don't play Mondio, and my emphasis might differ from what that other breeder is looking for.
Just saying. Many dogs. Many tastes. And my opinion is just one of many.

Christie M · Post by **Christie M** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:16 pm

vneerland wrote: And yet, I have heard people make statements like 'best stud ever','hardest hitting male', 'most serious working dog' without personal knowledge of whatever else is out there.

How about "best producer of working dogs"....... with one 8 week old litter on the ground.

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:36 pm

Christie M wrote:How about "best producer of working dogs"....... with one 8 week old litter on the ground.

Oh yes, those are also a

(dime) a dozen.

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:24 pm

vneerland wrote: Since I have been involved in (KNPV) dogs -which is several decades- I have seen many dogs of many bloodlines. One thing I learned is that all dogs remain individuals. There are good and bad specimen in all bloodlines. It is true, of course, that there may be some lines who's overall traits fit a person better than some other lines, but I have never been brave enough to openly critique dogs that I have never laid eyes on, regardless of their family tree.
And yet, I have heard people make statements like 'best stud ever','hardest hitting male', 'most serious working dog' without personal knowledge of whatever else is out there. Or just the reversed and negative labels without actually ever laying eyes on the dog they are talking about, but just going on perception or gossip.
I have no opinion about the dogs that Marjolein saw at work. I never even heard of the kennel.
They might possibly not be the kind of K9 material that I would have in mind for my personal collection, but I don't play Mondio, and my emphasis might differ from what that other breeder is looking for.
Just saying. Many dogs. Many tastes. And my opinion is just one of many.

I guess what I should have said is that "I generally don't like..."

I agree with much of what you've just posted, and hardly think my saying that those dogs are generally not the type of dogs I like to work is gossip or a negative critique of the dog. While you always have to judge the dog in front of you, what Marjolein said about them seems common to what I have seen/heard about similar bloodlines. I'm in no way saying that I know all there is to about the subject, because I most certainly don't and have never claimed to.

Marjolein wrote:No they were not, they used prongs, whips etc. But It was all a bit fairer to the dog, they took their time. I have seen many IPO people train...ehm...without a plan, would be the word. Just use all the tools you can get, if that didn't work, sell the dog 'cause it's obviously no good

...

I must say tho, that so far, I have not seen many people use e-collars in French ring. And they do compete in the higher levels. I am impressed by that, considering all the obedience they do. Mmmh, maybe that is the reason they do not need an e-collar as much, because the emphasis is more on the obedience from the start?

One of the FR dogs at our club was basically passed around once he arrived in the US after being titled to FR3 in France because he was extremely handler aggressive and had severely bitten a few people. I believe he was on his last stop when he got to his current handler. The dog would flat out refuse to out on the retrieves and would just clamp down harder on the sock while pushing into the handler's front legs with his head down. Previous handlers and the person who imported dog basically said that you had turn the e collar all the way up till it was maxed out to be able to get him to do anything. This just made the dog fight that much harder, and refuse even more to comply.

Two of the club members put their head together, and came up with an actual training plan (wow what a novel concept! lol). The dog was basically retaught the retreive and out completely motivationally and with no collars on at all. He does it like a champ now with his tail wagging.

It was really great for me to be able to watch where that dog had came from, to see how he is today. He was/is a dog that loves the fight more than anything, and was just put into a state of mind where he wanted to fight more because of the corrections he was getting essentially causing nothing but conflict.

I always enjoy watching a training session that actually has some thought put behind it, instead of just going out and doing the first thing that comes to mind.

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:36 pm

Barry's mal?

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:25 pm

Selena wrote:Barry's mal?

Yup. His insane fight drive and excellent nerves are a couple of the reasons I'm considering using him for an outcross with one of our heavily inbred Wieb girls. Could be interesting, or maybe not; but I do like him enough to consider it.

Selena · Post by **Selena** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:06 am

Sure like his working vids and pics! Bloodline? Could be interesring indeed..sway?

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:18 am

Maya...

Adzo is a really nice dog. Barry's had a hard time finding info about him from when he was in Europe but he did find video of a daughter working that was pretty impressive. I'm not very familiar with his bloodline, but it seems to be filled with top competitors and he has a close relative (I'm thinking half brother or something along those lines) that's a successful stud dog for a military type facility's breeding program, I believe. It's been a while since I researched his lines, and I can't remember it all off the top of my head.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/ ... -de-lArize

And he was OFA excellent at 6 years old...

Definitely something I'm seriously considering.

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:21 am

Selena wrote:Sure like his working vids and pics! Bloodline? Could be interesring indeed..sway?

Pfffffffff Barry couldn't take a pic to save his life. Feel free to let him know I said this!

MeganBays · Post by **MeganBays** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:21 am

Selena wrote:Sure like his working vids and pics! Bloodline? Could be interesring indeed..sway?

Pfffffffff Barry couldn't take a pic to save his life. Feel free to let him know I said this!

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