Stella has been declared "soft"

[katm4110]

So I think we may need to change her name to Sally! JK

Yesterday at her training lesson the trainer told me Stella has no toy drive and isn't even very food driven lol..... He is trying really hard to get her to do the barking and growling on command but she just isn't having it.... he even tied her to one pole and his GSD to another so maybe watching his dog would show her what to do..... nope she just went nuts trying to get at the other dog! He did give me some insight on why she may have ended up in the shelter. (It's always boggled my mind that someone could give up such a sweet dog) he said a lot of people get dutchies to use them for protection work or do sports and agility.... but if they have no toy or treat drive it makes training them frustrating...... hey it's a win for me Stella loves chilling in front of the tv and getting her nails painted... my kind of girl!

We are still working on the bark on command thing..... she does bark aggressively when certain people approach the yard or house or especially when someone she doesn't know approaches the kids but I need to be able to have her a little more under control. The trainer said she's got a little bit of a "junk yard dog mentality" and we don't want her that unpredictable. Also working on distracting her out of control prey drive..... Too bad we don't have squirrels to use for training! Then we'd be all set!!

Oh and she had a break through with her dog aggression... My husband was walking her around the room and past the trainer's dogs and she actually got nose to nose with his Aussie with no barking or growling! It was only a 5 second thing but we were super excited!

[vneerland]

What are/were you trying to accomplish Laura? Not sure if I understand why they are trying to get her to bark/growl?

[katm4110]

We want her to bark and growl on command... I have mentioned before having issues with my ex husband (I lose sleep at night now that he is out of prison) and thought having Stella would be a detourent to him (we also have a security system and are purchasing a firearm) we are way too inexperienced as dog owners to have her do bite work but were looking for something more mild. The trainer we found showed us what his dogs do (he calls it "fake bite work") he says "come on" and the dogs start barking and growling like they are going to rip your head off..... He did this by pretty much teasing them with a toy until they barked or growled out of frustration then he'd give it to them..... now all he has to do is say the word.... what's nice is they aren't trained to bite its just a lot of noise. Stella has no toy drive though and rarely barks as it is..... she also will not even really play tug aggressively with my husband or I let alone bark or growl at us (she will do this somewhat with the trainer)

She is so loyal to us and naturally protective.... I would just like to be able to get her to do this on command if I ever needed to.... If not no big deal she's a great dog and perfect to us..... our family feels complete now that we have her... and she's making so much progress with her here command and socializing with other dogs

[katm4110]

Been trying to search it online.... Agreasive alert command??

[LyonsFamily]

I think totally declaring a dog "soft" when the trainer has only been working with it for a few weeks is a bunch of Pfui. I don't really understand the logic of tying 2 dogs to different poles and hoping one will learn from the other either.

Reading the evaluations Odin's foster mom gave for him, she said he didn't really have ball drive and wouldn't tug. She showed us him on a puppy sleeve when I was evaluating him for adoption. He just wouldn't work for her. Both of those are his main rewards now when training. His ball drive is incredible with me.

Did this trainer do any foundation work with you to find Stella's different drives before jumping into this training?

I personally wouldn't start teaching an 'aggression attempt' on command without getting a high level of obedience down first. You can easily teach a speak command, but growling and barking requires more handling control as the command can be read wrong by the dog, or can bring up suppressed aggression. I would work on the off switch command before adding the on switch command. What happens if she starts with the acting barking/growling and then you can't command her out of it? Learn how to break before pressing the gas.

PS If she likes squirrels, you can try rabbit fur cat toys. The big mouse ones with real fur. I've used them with beagles when weaning off treats.

[katm4110]

Thanks, Stephanie!

Her basic obedience needs a lot of work still. I think I'll have the current trainer focus on that for the remainder of our sessions (I pre paid for 6) and then once she has that down find a new trainer. I don't want this guy messing with her when it comes to protection work if he's not going about it properly.

How do I find a proper trainer to evaluate her? I'm a first time dog owner and have a lot to learn. My husband I are definitely dedicated to making sure she is properly trained though.... we don't want a dog we can't control.

[Dutchringgirl]

when I got Sadie, she had no toy drive, no tug drive, no food drive, she then became a tug-0-holic, and her drive is high. Maybe it will develop? I agree with Stephanie, when I did Ring work, the obedience was perfect first before we did any aggressive work. The bark on command is pretty simple, start with some "talking " first, again, make sure she will stop it on command too, then you can work it up from there, they are very easily rilled up but hard to stop, so that is very important.

[Christie M]

I think there are allot of ways to look at this and I am not quick to discredit your trainer.

I will label a dog "soft" on the first visit if I think it is - although that is a very subjective term. Just because dogs can be taught to perform behaviors, or develop the desire once they are more comfortable or settled in doesn't make them a drivey dog. Drivey dogs come out of the box wide open and you don't have to beg them to engage in tug/food/toy...etc. If your dog is difficult to excite and bring drive out in, I would agree - though would have used different terminology.

I think its important to remember that your trainer has probably worked with many high drive dogs. Compared to those, your dog would look less working quality. However, compared to an average pet dog - your dog is probably very animated and drivey. Sounds like the perfect balance for your home. I often remind people that the dog (a malinois) that aided the SEAL team in killing Bin Laden jumped out of a helicopter to assist in that mission. Do people REALLY want to live with a pet that thinks its OK to jump out of a helicopter?? So a dog for a pet that is "soft" or less than working quality is ideal. Its still 10 times what most dogs are.

Per the alert behavior, it sounds like he really is just starting with a "speak" command to give some foundation to build from. If he were truly trying to elicit aggression, he could have gone a far more brutal (and popular) route which includes putting the dog in a flight or flight situation - with no flight option. Trainers will often whip, flank, poke, prod and anything else to get an aggressive reaction that is then rewarded. So what he's doing right now, even if its coupled with some suspicion sounds very reasonable. If she is a very respectful girl, and getting reaction at all is like pulling teeth for her, he may be hesitant to put too much control on her while trying to build the response.

Obedience training often requires a certain amount of compulsion to get the behaviors. Especially if your dog does not give you many options for reward because she simply doesn't value them. In that case, there is no stress release and the stress will likely carry over to any "excitable" work and inhibit that. So he may be trying to find the balance between you learning control and building your bond - but also giving the dog enough freedom that she doesn't feel too inhibited when a little craziness is asked of her.

How to find a good trainer??? I couldn't tell you. I think it sounds like the person you are working with has a pretty balanced way of working on things. Everyone has a different idea of what is correct and what isn't. Personally, I do "bitework" with my dogs from the minute they first put their mouth on my jeans (usually 4-5 weeks). My obedience takes A WHOLE LOT LONGER...... And we try to teach control through drive instead of squash drive, which requires you to try to add it back later.

Food for thought!

[ICE]

how old is stella? If you are looking for a bark/guarding on command, have you tried to use a bark box? At the advise of my trainer I started Ice on the bark box the day I got him. It was fun and rewarding for Ice and he does bark on command. (shutting him up is not so easy... )

[vneerland]

A what Patty?

[ICE]

A bark box may not be the technical name but that is what I call it. It is a wooden box apprx 2 foot by 1.5 foot with a hinged lid. there are small holes drilled into the lid. I put meat in the box and tease Ice up until he barked then open it so he could have a taste. Each time I asked for more and more barking.Very simple but effective. I have even started to have him guard the box by standing on it and barking on command. If it still doesn't make sense I can take a picture of my bark box when I get home and post it.

[Marjolein]

I like what Christie wrote
And I like softies too

[katm4110]

Wow Christie you made some great points... I definitely wouldn't want a very "drivey" dog. First and foremost Stella is a family pet and like you said the perfect balance! I love the point you made about using her drive for obedience... I haven't been around many dogs... we had two cats and a Maltese when I was a kid (so pretty much 3 cats) but now that you mentioned it none of my friends or family member's dogs do much more then chew rawhides or play fetch. So like you said my "soft" dutchie is 10 times more driven then most dogs!

It did bother me to see Stella tied up to the pole going nuts because of the other dog barking... I'm sure she was just fine but I don't think I could handle intense training that involved scaring or teasing her to get her to do the alert command (I think I'M the softie!) I have absolutely nothing against it and my opinion is probably based on the fact that I know next to nothing about protection work.

So I'm going to give the trainer some time... ask more questions and hopefully gain a better comfort level with what he's doing.... Ill also keep working on a "speak" command.... she does sit, shake, and platz (she won't respond to down only platz so I assume she's been worked with somewhere along the line) we're working on here too she catches on quick so it will just be a matter of getting her to do it the first few times I'm sure!

Patty, Stella is 3 we've had for around 2 months.... I like the bark box idea but would probably need to stuff a live squirrel in it to get her to respond!

I'm going to scope out the pet stores for some furry cat toys and anything that resembles a squirrel today too!

[Christie M]

It did bother me to see Stella tied up to the pole going nuts because of the other dog barking... I'm sure she was just fine but I don't think I could handle intense training that involved scaring or teasing her to get her to do the alert command (I think I'M the softie!)

Sorry - meant to touch on this. It is very common to tie a dog out with another if we are trying to elicit some type of excitement for the decoy/helper. The thought is that maybe seeing another dog go into drive, the quieter one will feed off of that and demonstrate similar behaviors. Unfortunately, with a dog who shows dog aggression - it usually just builds frustration for the other dog - not the bad guy.

I'm going to scope out the pet stores for some furry cat toys and anything that resembles a squirrel today too!

Check the craft stores for rabbit fur. I have a leash that is made for tugging for a dog I was training for flyball. It has rabbit fur woven in lower on the handle to encourage her to bite there - instead of my hand when she is excited. If you look at various flyball or agility tugs, you can find some with the fur woven in for you and that may help bring her excitement up some.

[leih merigian]

A couple of things to keep in mind, Laura.

If someone (like you're ex) breaks into your house, Stella is gonna make a racket. She may even come upstairs to be with you to do it, but she'll make a racket. So, you're covered there.

As far as wanting her to bark on cue when you're out in the world and feel threatened or unsure, just having a big dog who looks like her on the other end of your leash, and behaving well, she's a deterrent. She will appear to others like an attack dog , and they won't take the chance. Especially the kinds of people who would be an actual threat; they know about dogs being trained to attack. They'll most likely move away from you, rather than take the chance.

So, keep at it with the training and working towards this goal, but relax about it . She's a great deterrent just as she is already.

She hasn't been with you that long yet, even tho it may seem like she's always been with you . If you're anxious about this particular part of her training, she'll know it.

(I don't remember if she likes toys or not...but if she does, play with her with a squeeky toy...squeek the heck out of it, tease her with it, eventually she may just bark out of frustration, reward the heck out of that and make it a big game. Once you can just get her to speak on cue, moving on to a more aggressive kind of barking will be much easier.)

[vneerland]

A bark box may not be the technical name but that is what I call it. It is a wooden box apprx 2 foot by 1.5 foot with a hinged lid. there are small holes drilled into the lid. I put meat in the box and tease Ice up until he barked then open it so he could have a taste. Each time I asked for more and more barking.Very simple but effective. I have even started to have him guard the box by standing on it and barking on command. If it still doesn't make sense I can take a picture of my bark box when I get home and post it.

No picture needed. You just gave a good description of a(n adapted KNPV) revier box.
Bark box would be a good name for it.

[MeganBays]

Check the craft stores for rabbit fur. I have a leash that is made for tugging for a dog I was training for flyball. It has rabbit fur woven in lower on the handle to encourage her to bite there - instead of my hand when she is excited. If you look at various flyball or agility tugs, you can find some with the fur woven in for you and that may help bring her excitement up some.

I'm not familiar at all with either of those sports, just know the general concept; what's the purpose for having the dog tug on the leash?

[ICE]

A bark box may not be the technical name but that is what I call it. It is a wooden box apprx 2 foot by 1.5 foot with a hinged lid. there are small holes drilled into the lid. I put meat in the box and tease Ice up until he barked then open it so he could have a taste. Each time I asked for more and more barking.Very simple but effective. I have even started to have him guard the box by standing on it and barking on command. If it still doesn't make sense I can take a picture of my bark box when I get home and post it.

No picture needed. You just gave a good description of a(n adapted KNPV) revier box.
Bark box would be a good name for it.

That is exactly what it is. My trainer is Dutch and from KNPV lines (can you say that about a person?)

[katm4110]

I totally need to relax.... I'm a new dog mom and want everything to be perfect for her (yes I was this bad when I brought each of my babies home) I'm keeping up with the obedience and my goal for right now is "speak" if she can do more.... great.... If not.... I have a super fierce looking dog that would make anyone think twice (barking or not)

I'm heading to the craft store tonight in search of fur to make her some squirrel-ish toys.... this should be fun!

[Marjolein]

looking forward to seeing your handy work. I believe Julius K9 also sells tug toys made of rabbid skin, not sure if they are available in the US tho?