Ears not standing at 1 year

[johninny]

don, i will try to keep this to a clarifying response as this has not been an interesting or fruitful discussion.
1st, no one had mentioned kibble, til you referred to a non-existent discussion of raw vs kibble - the point had been about adding valuable other nutrients to your superbly/excellently chosen all-meat diet. [even Stephanie who has chimed in her support for only meat, then went on to say there is an imbalance that needs to be fixed with fish oil. a word on this for Stephanie later on.]
2nd, having spent much time reading through your links, i have found NO serious consideration of nutritional needs of canines. and the only comparisons offered in anecdotal form [ with which i would concur] is that feeding your suggested diet is better and safer than tennis balls and the very worst-quality kibble that is sold [ corn and grain-based with very poor-quality animal protein sources; i personally think the people that make and promulgate that stuff should be in prison because it IS INDEED animal cruelty -- but, other than you, no one in this thread has even mentioned kibble. the idea that an original primitive diet [ for almost any species ] is the most nutritionally beneficial diet that can be had with today's diverse availability of quality food sources and with today's huge base of knowledge and technology is ill-considered and maybe just downright ignorant.
as one tiny example, many people here use bio-available forms of vitamin c and cosequin [ or its equivalent ingredients ] to help their dog's joints and tendons cope with stresses and, in some cases, hip dysplasia - and many do this proactively rather than waiting for crisis to hit. for those who have witnessed the changes in their dogs, there is no denying that the positive effects of these nutritional supplements is so dramatic that denying their use would be very cruel indeed -- and doing that behind the rallying cry that a wolf ''millions of years'' ago would not have had such nutrition is the height of absurdity. the list of such specific nutritional supplementation with corresponding specific benefit can be almost endless, but i am reminded of a recent tread on internal and external parasites [ where DE was recommended for keeping a dog's intestinal tract free of parasites]; also herbs like rosemary and oregano offer protection against external parasites while offering anti-bacterial boost internally. other phyto-chemicals such as lutein and zeaxanthin are extremely valuable in keeping a dog's eyes clear, well-functioning, and cataract-free for a life-time. ... etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
so back to your suggestions for reading, i much prefer sources like this site in general and formal sources like whole dog journal and journals from vet schools such as tufts and johns Hopkins where there is a thoughtful synthesis of anecdotal observation, a real knowledge of species-based health and history, and modern, evidence-based research and experimentation. and for those dog owners that wish to pursue other or multiple feeding approaches, some of these same sources also provide excellent analysis of commercially-available dog foods, backed up by first-hand inspection AND ANALYSIS of their underlying production facilities and the managerial and philosophical background that support those production facilities and techniques. there are foods out there - even dry ones - that are capable of providing an extremely healthy life for a dog [ but please, don't say it -- as nowhere have i suggested you stop what you are doing, but rather add to it so that your dogs' needs are met as fully as possible - which is obviously your goal or you would not have put so mush care into meat selection as you do.

[Don Henry]

What a horrible, heartbreaking story. I am soooo sorry for your loss, and the frustration (probably an understatement) on it not needing to go that way. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you, I don't have children so my dogs are my kids. I miss my Sly I was trying to do the best for him but after burying him I looked at the reviews for Bluepearl AH I made a huge mistake trusting them to help him and that cost him his life.

[Don Henry]

one more comment on meat.
meat in the past had a lot of essential stuff tho even then a diet should be balanced with other non meats. but unless you are using free-range fowl [ cageless does not count !] and grass-fed-to-finish grazing animals, then even the meat is providing none of the essential nutrients that dogs would have gotten from meats in the past [ served by prior human generations or caught by the dogs themselves]. i.e., if chicken is not free-range, then it is totally devoid of essential fatty acids, which basically leaves calories to keep the dog going. similarly, red meats that are generally sold in the usa [ except for bison and except for certain micro-geographies ] is loaded with fat that is even more damaging to dogs than it is to us humans and is devoid of conjugated linoleic acid, which was the real draw for all of us to start eating meat in the first place. so if you are buying ''normal'' commercially available meat, even if from a decent butcher, and feeding ONLY that, then it seems to me that your dog's body would be in a true nutritional crisis. hope you use bison AND free-range fowl.

Great videos of your buddies!

[johninny]

3rd, Stephanie, correct me if you find i am specifically wrong about the following for some reason, but rather than salmon oil i think there are 2 alternatives that accomplish what you want, whereas the salmon oil may not. the salmon oil is most probably derived from farm-raised salmon, whose oil would actually be lacking [ often to the point of absence ] in the essential fatty acids you seek [ just as non-free-range chicken is]. caged or cageless chicken and farmed-raised salmon [ also caged] are what they eat. in salmon's case, the farm-raised is not only nutritionally rather useless, but usually filled with so many toxins that many organizations advise it is to be avoided as unsafe. [ so, i do assume here that the salmon oil is farm-raised due to the extreme expense and relative rarity of wild salmon. if this is not the case with the oil you get, then almost all objection melts away.]
my way of achieving same goal is several-fold: i serve a substantial portion of sardines [ no soy-oil packing] or wild salmon every day. added to another meal each day is ground flax seed and either flax oil or olive oil. the flax, if i remember correctly, is a 70-75 vs 25-30 omega 3 to 6 mix.
4th, the juvenile response to my suggesting you, DON, take a look at Platinum Performance is the main thing that makes this whole conversation the first time i have not been excited about being a member of this forum. the 37% carbohydrates that you point to are the base of ground flax that serves as the base for the supplement [ BTW, daily serving for a DS is 2 tablespoons ]. so before spouting off about content labels [ relevant to ALL your commentary on the Platinum issue, though frankly i have no idea what your point was regarding the ''fat'' and ''protein'' contents], please learn the meanings of what is contained in those labels. since the carbohydrate is from flax, that means the net c-h content [ net of fiber that passes through the body harmlessly and, in fact in this case, beneficially ] is 5% of that amount or less than 2% of 2 tablespoons per day.
[ as a footnote on 'platinum performance, they have only 3 canine products, sharply up from one 12 or so years ago when i started using it on the very high recommendation of one or more of the journals i mentioned earlier. historically, this company had only worked with thoroughbred horse and Olympic athlete training organizations to produce in low volume the best nutritional supplements possible; the journal[s] were extremely pleased that this company had expanded its efforts on a very limited basis [ one and now 3 general but comprehensive and high-quality canine products rather than many very specific products for horse and human athletes] to canines.]
now you seem to have 2 strange impressions: 1] that i am advocating carbohydrates [ and, in fact, you have very rudely implied several times completely out of nowhere that i am suggesting the worst kind of kibble made on the planet !!], and 2] that your dogs get absolutely no carbohydrates.
-- i have advocated a well-balanced diet to achieve the best, most effective nutrition possible so as to target a long life that is healthy and happy to the very end. how you equate my advocacy of well-balanced nutrition with serving of the worst, contaminated kibble crap or otherwise loading a dog with USELESS carbohydrates is beyond my comprehension, but is the kind of leap of irrationality and ignorance that says to me 'flee' - so after this, you are free to rant and misstate all you want without expectation of further comment.
-- when you are feeding organ meat to your dogs, they ARE indeed getting carbohydrates, and unlike with flax, it is not passed with no effect through the body. [ some organs such as kidney are c-h free; others like liver not so.] now this is not a criticism of feeding any of the organ meats - quite the opposite- i am a BIG advocate of doing so which you would see if you would bother to understand my earlier comments to you or to read my posts in many other threads. rather, it is yet just another fallacy inserted into your unnecessary rant.

i originally commented because i always try to get the best possible for all our very smart dogs. to do otherwise is just not right. most of us here are just trying to do the right thing and are here to help figure out what that is with one another's help -- and, importantly, for the immense pleasure of a community of shared interest that for many of us [ i think, you AND i included in this bunch] includes valuing our dogs at least as highly as any of our humans. hence, here, this further response despite that this has borne no resemblance to a real and fruitful conversation of the sort that usually occurs here where we help each other, where we have fun, where i learn i am wrong about some things [ and really want to be corrected], and where i can likewise be useful to others. i have seldom in my adult life experienced such flagrant, pointed, and pointless misstatement of my words and/or point of view, so i wanted not to leave those misstatements associated with me - to put the record a bit straight. i doubt that this accomplishes anything more than that, but if i am wrong i would be very pleased and will look forward to hearing more of you and your very beautiful dogs.

[johninny]

Don, just posted and see you posted while i was writing.
first, THANK YOU. i love my DS and have been on a photo and video binge since March of this year when i found that my TRACEDOG of almost 13 years had little time to live. a friend had made that ''Dogumentary'' of TD for his own reasons when TD was 8/9 years old, but i had taken almost no pics and only one video throughout tracedog's life. [ i am the sort that almost never records vacations, events, etc, because i do not want the act of photography to come between me and the moment [ or to change the moment ].] thankfully, a bird in my head told me to go get a new camera and start taking pics. i am so glad i did. now to soothe future heartbreak, i have continued with the new ones -- and a foster in between [ www.youtube.com/caindoginny ] of a dog that had been confined alone in a yard for 7 years with so little human contact that he did not even know a single word other than ''no''.

as to the quote in the same post of my words on which you did not comment, i will, unless/until i hear otherwise, take it as a confirmatory sign of strong shared interest in the quality feeding of all dogs and our special ones particularly.

[Don Henry]

John, I never said your suggesting the worst kind of kibble. The only mention of kibble is what Grace was being feed as a puppy when I got her. I respect your opinion and have looked at all you have mentioned . Sorry John, I am in no way trying to make anyone mad here I apologise if I have offended you in any way and thank you responding to my post and your suggestions.

John, I am new to this forum and did not see page 2 until a hour ago.

[LyonsFamily]

3rd, Stephanie, correct me if you find i am specifically wrong about the following for some reason, but rather than salmon oil i think there are 2 alternatives that accomplish what you want, whereas the salmon oil may not. the salmon oil is most probably derived from farm-raised salmon, whose oil would actually be lacking [ often to the point of absence ] in the essential fatty acids you seek [ just as non-free-range chicken is]. caged or cageless chicken and farmed-raised salmon [ also caged] are what they eat. in salmon's case, the farm-raised is not only nutritionally rather useless, but usually filled with so many toxins that many organizations advise it is to be avoided as unsafe. [ so, i do assume here that the salmon oil is farm-raised due to the extreme expense and relative rarity of wild salmon. if this is not the case with the oil you get, then almost all objection melts away.]

You're absolutely right about the salmon oil. That's why I'm feeding a body fish oil pill by Safeway now that is made of different, wild caught, fish including sardines, anchovies, and Alaska Walleye Pollock. The Walmart Salmon oil used to be wild caught, and still is in some regions, but not here, that's why I don't get it anymore.

I stick with fish oil over sardines or other whole fish because Odin is on a therapeutic dose (3x the regular dose) for various health reasons and to help rid him of dry skin that irritates my husband's allergies. Feeding the equivalent in sardines would make up too much of his diet. Mainly, little fish aren't challenging enough and cause my gulper to sometimes choke, but also, since red meat is more apparent in wolves' diets, I don't want to cloud out the red meat by feeding fish when the comparison in pill form is nothing in the daily meal intake. Each 3oz serving of sardines has 1.2g of omega-3s, so I'd have to feed around a half pound a day to get the correct dose for Odin and it also adds too much to his bone intake at that high a quantity and I lose the benefit of bigger bone in meals like pork shoulder if I have to decrease bone content because of the fish.

Also, the wild caught whole sardines near me are at least $4.99/lb, so that's around $2.50 per day when a 2 month supply of fish oil pills cost me $15 and is around a quarter a day. They're a great option for smaller dogs and those just needing a regular dose of fish oil, but logically, the pills make more sense for us at this point.

One main benefit that fish oil (whether in pill, liquid, or whole fish form) has over olive oil and flaxseed oil is the anti-inflammatory properties. That's the main reason why I take it myself since I do a lot of Olympic weightlifting and still have to groom and train 100lb+ dogs the next day.

Since Odin is a performance dog, it helps him stay limber and muscle recovery time is lowered. Flaxseed oil is also known for it's anti-inflammatory benefits, but I've read recent studies that show fish oil is more effective still and I'd rather stick to an animal based source anyway when supplementing for a dog. Fish Oil also has a more favorable omega 3:6 ratio (8:1) over flaxseed oil (3:1). If the diet already has an excess of omega 6's from farm raised meat, then I don't see the point in going with a different supplement that has a lower ratio.

[johninny]

this is the third time I have tried posting the following; previous attempts erased by the system just as I was finishing!

I share your low opinion of most medical practitioners whether human or vet. the average practitioner is shockingly ignorant and/or careless relative to what he ethically should be. i am so sorry for what you have been through and can only begin to imagine your on-going pain upon losing your friend in such an horrifically unnecessary and sudden way. i lost Tracedog last july; i had 4 months to prepare myself and still barely managed to continue my existence. he was the only important relationship of my life since the death of my parents a very long time ago.
but I do have great respect for what medical science can achieve in the right hands. so with incompetence and indifference as the norm, it makes absolutely priceless those doctors that are knowledgeable, analytical, caring, and sometimes even brilliant.
such people twice did wonders for Tracedog - the last time even against my initial ''better judgment''. though his vet care outside these occurrences was of mundane quality at best and at worst deprived him of attention that MIGHT have meant he could still today be romping like a 2-year old. but he and I benefited greatly that twice when it really counted, the right doctors were there at the right time. in large part it was luck -- but some was geography and ability, and some was sheer determination on my part 5 years ago [ just before being told that he had at most a few days to live and that there was only a miniscule chance of saving him by extreme action that no vet advised undertaking due to its futility ] when vets told me that TD was fine, that absolutely nothing was wrong with him, and that I was mis-/over-reading certain subtle behaviors over a 3-hour period that I was lucky to have even noticed , that I then persisted in stating that something WAS wrong [ tho TD acting like a healthy, rambunctious puppy at the hospital did not help my case]. when we all finally got on the same page 14 hours later that something was wrong, they acted against THEIR better judgment but nevertheless did pull out all the stops and performed miraculously. with only a miniscule chance of surviving, he did survive and went on to recover so fully that only 2 1/2 weeks before his death years later he was still being mistaken for a 2 year-old by other dog owners.
so on this topic of medical care, you mentioned vaccinations. i agree with you , given the diet that you feed, that the first of your dogs' vaccinations will probably effectively serve them their entire lives.

[johninny]

[ continuing above posting].... with Tracedog, he got only one vaccination of everything, except in the case of rabies that he got at 2 or 3 year intervals as the type and the law required. as a precaution against the lack of the other vaccinations, i tested TD's titer levels - the first few years i did so to make sure that my theory was correct and actually worked sufficiently [ and 13 years ago, as far as i knew, it was only my theory ] and after that to make sure that time and aging were not over-riding the benefits of his diet and/or his initial vaccinations. after several years of annual testing [ and skipping of booster vaccines] showed VERY high titer levels, i cut back his testing to every 2 years or so. since each dog and its immune system can be different, such testing to be sure is probably a good idea.

rabies vaccinations are a different matter. i do not KNOW, but i suspect, given the nature of the disease, that immunity to infection will not be conferred or boosted by ANY diet. so there are 2 very serious matters to consider if thinking about skipping routine/required rabies vaccinations. first, just a infected rodent's tooth scratch on the skin - so slight the dog may not notice not less you - is enough for your dog to get rabies.
second, if your dog's teeth even by accidental collision scratched the skin of someone [ or the child of someone !] who is worried about rabies or uncomfortable with dogs, then the law and random chance could cause sudden catastrophe for your dog and horrible anguish for you. i just would not want to risk either of those scenarios - and those when combined with myriad other scenarios for disaster with rabies are not all that remote in possibility. so consider every angle and make sure you can accept the consequences of no protection.
good luck.

[johninny]

Stephanie, that all makes tremendous sense. i think i have not seen a safeway in this region in years, but i will research to see if one is hiding from me. is the pill you use labeled a ''safeway'' brand? or do you think i might find it elsewhere? [ like any indication of another company that is making it for safeway?] thank you for all the info.

[johninny]

Don, if i misunderstood, then apologies are in order from me for thinking you were misstating my thoughts. sorry for any misunderstanding and my sharp and verbose reaction.

[Don Henry]

John, so sorry to hear about your loss it is so hard losing a family member. I have lost many over the years but Sly was the only one that died prematurely, all the rest old age got them.
No worries my pals will get rabies boosters but they will have to be thimerosal free.
My 11 year old GSD was feed premium kibble for 10 years and like you I also gave him a can of sardines two times a week. Last year there was a recall on the food I was giving him but not on the lot number I had. Before I learned of the recall Bru and I both got terrible diarrhea him first then few days later me. That is what made me start looking into the best food to feed as I wanted his last years to be healthy and pain free as possible.

When I got Grace her allergies were so bad she had no hair on her belly, chest or the top of her feet. My vet. that I have used for 20 years put her on antihistamines and medicated shampoo they made no difference at all. so he wanted me to take her to a dermatologist.

So I took her to another vet for a second opinion, he is the one that the local police use for there K9's. He thought it may be scabies I was hoping he was correct but had my doubts. I had looked into the symtoms and she did not have all of them she was missing the crust on the edges of here ears. He gave her a shot of ivermectin but that did not help. He wanted to sell me a 90.00 bag of prescription food so I called the company to make sure there are no GMO's and no ingredients from china are used in there products.

I was told they do not seek out non-GMO ingredients and they try to keep 80% of there suppliers to the US and Canada. So I asked asked for a list of the countries of origin for there ingredients. They told me that would not provide me that. Why can't they be transparent, it has to be they want to hide something.

When I took Grace back to the vet he said he thought she had atopy and it will be something we may have to live with the rest of her life. That was not acceptable to me so I dropped the vets and started looking for a natural cure. I came up with plan A, B and C and stick with each for 4 months before moving to the next plan.

During my research it struck me that if we should be living foods that will spoil and rot in a few days even if refrigerated and not dead foods, why would it not be same for them. I stopped feeding the supper premium kibble switched her to raw. Made a blend of organic cold pressed coconut oil and therapeutic essence of lavender oil to massage into her skin to condition and sooth the itching. I was amazed at the results we got from the oils when I messaged her the first time with the oils she relaxed and immediately stop chewing and scratching and chewing. I was so happy!! Plan B and C was not needed in 3 months she had totally healed and all the hair had grown back.

I felt she was now healthy enough to get spayed, so when I took her to the vet his staff and he were totally amazed at her condition and he told me what ever I was doing not to stop. Keep in mind he does not approve of raw feeding.

[johninny]

that sounds just great. did not realize how very bad off she was.
I have always fed a very diverse diet. fish almost every day. every day there is the platinum and other supplements, oils, cottage cheese or yogurt, at least one can of merrick dog food [ organ meat, chicken breast on bone, or bison ], various herbs. merrick has great processing facilities and great ingredients, so if you ever have to use commercial in some emergency, their food is very very good [ all ingredients and methods to human standards tho cannot be stated as such, but that is what the journals report. the most impressive thing for the analysts is that they are fully integrated so not taking meat from some other source but from their own facility. so all very controlled by them. at least when I read reports a few years back - and over a number of years = they were unique in that respect. ] I also use a lot of food from farmers I know, so chicken and angus beef is all from small farms where I personally know everything is done right. eggs from a neighbor. greens and herbs. from my own garden, etc, etc and a good butcher gives me his best marrow bones, which are the only raw part of the diet I serve, tho the roast beef is only minimally cooked. for trace, I only used dry food when we traveled, but having 2 pups at once for a while, I have used it more [ when the dogs and I are both in a rush like just before going outside for their morning pee a cup of dry food is served, then upon returning and me awakening comes the main meal, whatever that may be], but I tend to use kiwi peak, which is air-dried venison muscle and organ meats and green mussels and kelp and bits of lots of stuff I like to see, but I think you would be impressed by the label. it is drt, but I do not think kibble applies. sometimes do use merricks grain-free bison kibble, esp for variety from the kiwi peak when traveling and usually added to a can of sardines.
anyway, I am very impressed and happy that you got the new pup into such great shape.

[LyonsFamily]

Stephanie, that all makes tremendous sense. i think i have not seen a safeway in this region in years, but i will research to see if one is hiding from me. is the pill you use labeled a ''safeway'' brand? or do you think i might find it elsewhere? [ like any indication of another company that is making it for safeway?] thank you for all the info.

I will start a new thread in the feeding section about soy free, wild caught, fish oil sources so not to steal Don's anymore. I have a very lame habit of reading fish oil pills at every store I go to, sometimes even going into random stores to read, so I'm sure I have cell phone pictures of a type available near to you. If not, I have raw feeding friends on other forums that constantly post their fish oil finds. It's like a very strange club when we find the good stuff.

[johninny]

a very valuable resource! thank you.

[Marko_1]

Right now, Odin and I are sharing a bottle of the Safeway brand mini pills. They had them at Dominick's for buy one get one free, so I stocked up since I need it for workout recovery as well.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who makes my critters share their vitamins with me.

[Christie M]

Hey all,

Had to respond with 2 points.

1 - Just post the ears. We actually purchased a posting kit from some German Shepherd site in Germany. I honestly don't know where it was, but I am sure you can find it. You want foam supports that are shaped to the ear - with small holes in it. You also want a safe for skin - rubber cement like glue. Leave it on for a minimum of 1 week, but probably longer because of her age. You can supplement at the same time. If posting doesn't work, I don't see them standing. But I have seen it work with dogs even older.

2 - Check out this journal article. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 11837.html.
Nature is a peer reviewed scientific publication. The listed study was a genetic study of wolves and domestic dogs. They found that all of the dogs (from a variety of breeds) all contained a genetic mutation that was found in NONE of the wolves (from various geographic locations). The mutation is also found in humans and the expression of that mutation allows an animal to utilize carbs and convert them into energy. So now we know that it is not just protein and fat that dogs can use. There are various cool things about the study. Many see the mutation as further proof that dogs and humans co-evolved together. Certainly we know that using just the wild canids as our "go to guide" for what dogs should eat is not accurate. I love that it reminds us that there are no absolutes because our knowledge changes daily. Please don't take my posting this as an endorsement for crappy dry dog foods. But, I personally do think that a purely carnivorous diet is not the ideal for dogs - though I know many who believe adamantly otherwise. At least this is scientific proof that carbs can be metabolized and used.