I've already made up my mind but what do y'all think?

[gingerman]

This is my Ginger, she is the joy of my life. She was a stray so I have no papers but she seems a perfect dutchy except for her size, she is a BIG GIRL, 86lbs and 24.5" at shoulders, VERY muscular with a huge neck. She is only 10 1/2 months old to my best guess, how big do dutchies get???

[Dutchringgirl]

Other than brindle, I really dont see much that could be DS. He is cute though .

[gingerman]

The pictures really aren't very good they seem a bit distorted, she is taller and not as wide as she looks here, but I don't see what about Ginger isn't DS, her hair is shorter than many but I've seen other dutchies with hair as short. Ill get some more pics when I can, but thanks for the compliment anyway, she is a cutie and so sweet. One unique thing about Ginger is how she gets off of a bed or couch, she lets her back legs drag totally horizontally until almost off the bed and then they flop to the floor right as she is almost off, is this a DS thing or just Ginger I wonder.

[Raven]

I agree with Lisa about your baby. More pictures might help, of course, but snoop around under Breed Standards to get a better idea. Regardless, you took her in when she needed a home and now you both have each other. Doesn't get better than that.

[gingerman]

Still not the best pics but the color is more realistic

[gingerman]

ok, a couple more.

[LyonsFamily]

I agree with the other posters. I don't see much DS besides brindle.

As for the bed thing, if I'm understanding what you're describing correctly, I would look to any other signs of abnormal hip movements. It could be an early sign of arthritis or weakness of the rear end.

[gingerman]

Really? What about the big pointy ears? I was looking for what type of mix she was when I came across DS, because I was confounded by what else she would have been. At my local dog park there is one other DS puppy, both of us pegged the other dog as a DS, the walk, run, profile and attitude. Her snout does seem slightly short, but not as much as it might appear in the pics, and she is very stocky and muscular, but still i can't think of another dog that is closer in characteristics than DS. If one looks at dutch shepherd history, the dutchies before 1900's look just like ginger to me, a bit stockier and shorter snouted than many today, but that is before malinois was mixed in to improve the breeds genetic profile. Maybe I just need more pics, but I appreciate your opionions anyway, and I love her no matter what she is.

http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_s ... istory.htm

I think her hips are fine, there certainly is no sign of weakness in any other way, though when we found her she was weak and bony and she did the leg draggy thing, I thought she would outgrow it. Now it seems she just likes the stretch she gets but i'll continue to watch for any bad signs anyway.

[Dutchringgirl]

The bed thing would bother me, having a dog with Double HD, any signs of abnormal hip/ leg usage would be a red flag. I have had a few different breeds of dogs in my family and none have ever dragged their legs, even Sadie when she was younger and showing signs of pain when she was getting up or using the stairs.

How long have you had her? The hip thing could be from weakness, depending on where she was and what she was doing before she came to you, you could do some hill climbs with her or other exercises to strengthen her rear end, but myself, I would talk to a vet to get their opinion just to make sure everything is okay back there, or if something is brewing.

The brindle dosnt point to a specific breed either, there are many breeds that are brindle. Same with the ears, there are other shepherd breeds or other breeds in general that could give her the ears.

All in all, as long as you love each other, that is what matters.

[Karin]

I'm no expert, as I just have my first DS. With your gal there is something off with the head, too boxy, might be camera angle I don't know. But I agree that brindle can come from many breeds and if you have a brindle breed shepherd mix you can get the prick ears… cattle dog mix, etc.

Either way or the many ways it could be, enjoy.Dogs are the best.

[icvanstra]

I'm leaning towards not.

[gingerman]

Looking at the dog on the right of the three above and looking at this pic, are you seriously saying there is not a striking resemblance?

[johninny]

in each successive photo you have posted, Ginger's head has looked more shepherd-like, whereas the first couple did not look shepherdy. photos alone can be very misleading in either direction. but you are right that if judging SOLELY on the basis of that last photo, one may well conclude that DS was likely.

more problematic in labeling Ginger a DS is her lack of a greyhound rib-cage/underbelly look. DSs are built more like greyhounds, salukis, etc., and run just as fast. their speed and agility is unrivaled and one can see that in the build of their bodies.

as the owner of the dog you referenced in the masthead [ as of your writing, but about to disappear ], Sakima was a rescue dumped by a DS breeder, but obviously not a reputable breeder or Saki would not have been dumped and would not have been such damaged goods. Saki is a bit stockier than i am used to in DS, though not impossibly so. he has the greyhound-like structure i referred to, but again not as extreme as most DS in this country. but he is unbelievably agile and as fast as the wind with the daredevil attitude and physical nimbleness that lets DS pull off amazing feats of physicality - like unworldly leaps and jumps. he relates to my other dogs as a DS would and they to him. he is definitely ALL shepherd, but i would not bet my life that all his grandparents were Dutch.

i would have said no DS apparent in your 1st photos of Ginger. later photos less clear on the matter, but i remain very dubious due to body structure at the very least. at this point, what with the ambiguity of photos, i would have to rely on physical [ behavioral, movement, etc] and intellectual attributes to determine if there is possibly any DS mixed in, but barring strong evidence to the contrary, the opinions expressed already by others seem correct.

if i were you i would study videos of DS - running, playing, socializing, working, just being themselves - to see how much of Ginger you recognize in them. they are very specific in their manners. if you believe Ginger behaves and moves and relates like they do, then toast her as a DS mix and adjust her training accordingly if necessary. but beyond your approach to her education and training, it does not matter much. you obviously think she is an exceptional dog and there is no reason to think otherwise whether DS or not. congratulations on a great dog.

[Dutchringgirl]

I am in high doubt that she is a DS. I have two and have been around this breed working and training them for 10 years and she does not, other than the brindle, represent a DS.

Is there a reason you are so set that she is? The breeding will not limit the amount of love and companionship dogs will give us. You can still play, run, do a sport, train and you will have as much fun no matter what label you put on her.

[gingerman]

I'm not taking this too seriously, but the main reason why I maintain her dutchiness is practicality. I had no idea what type of breed she was, assuming some type of mix that I could not for the life of me come up with. Everytime I go out I get "what on earth kind of dog is THAT?" or "is that a dingo?", I at least have an easy answer. Also, it has helped me anticipate what type of traits she would have, and that has been hugely helpful. It made me more confindent that she was unlikely to be very agressive to other animals, and she is submissive even to our cats. I knew she needed lots of exercise and would love to be challenged and I've done my best, she has really thrived. I learned that they are very much working dogs and enjoy a job, and boy is this one on target....ginger has helped with so much yardwork, she has moved piles of sticks and dug holes for my sister as she was placing paving stones for a walkway, it is really so cute to watch!
Ginger is not the apotheosis of agility, but she is very fast and agile, especially for her size. She can run almost all out and somehow manage to maintain the speed passing under a low picnic table leaving even smaller dogs behind, she just seems wiggly and very flexible. She can leap high with ease, but I don't think she has reached her capabilities, she is STILL a puppy very much, not a year old yet. If I were to have bought ginger as a pure bred dutchie for their agility, then I would have been dissapointed, she is just a little too bulky to keep up with the very best, but I didnt so who cares lol. One thing I would ask, why is it so important to you for ginger NOT to be a DS? DS were not a breed that filled out some human ideal, they were a working dog that already existed and then was recognized by people as a breed, therefore they were a bit of an "outlaw" breed to begin with. There is no doubt in my mind that if the first people that recognized the breed saw ginger, they would deem here a DS, and that is good enough for me. Breed standards change and shift, but since with DS the dog came first and its recognition came after, I think people should be very careful about taking subtle differences too seriously, this attitude hurt the breed badly early in the 20 century.

[LyonsFamily]

One thing I would ask, why is it so important to you for ginger NOT to be a DS?

Nobody wants Ginger to not be a DS. You came on here asking for an opinion, and you got one. I have 2 Dutch Shepherds now and was around malinois for a long time before them. I've worked to help identify numerous dogs going into Dutch Shepherd rescue and she's missing a lot of the key features Dutch Shepherds have. Even if she resembles a dog early on in the history of the breed, that look isn't what is being produced right now. There are still very few DS in the country, especially compared to other breeds, so adding in the fact that she doesn't meet a loose version of the breed standard, there's a strong chance she's not a DS.

Also, for personality identification, the DS is not an animal that does great with every animal. DS have high prey drives and it's often difficult to find one that does well with cats and small animals without management and training. There are members here that have cats and Dutch Shepherds and make it work, but I wouldn't say that that is a breed standard trait.

[gingerman]

I'm curious, what are the key features that she is missing? I've read through all the breed standards and the only one she seems to vary from is that she is about 15% too big, but the owners of the "real" dutchy (papers and all), I met said dutch's father was over 90lbs and as muscular as ginger. She is possibly 5lbs overwheight, but there really seems to be little fat on her, she can appear quite trim waisted I just dont have good pics yet. Her build is long and low, with a long and very upright neck, standing next to an extra burly white GSD their physics were essentially identical except for the dramatic brindle. It is the fact she looks so unlike any other kind of dog that I feel so confident in deeming her a DS, so I seem to be missing something. I guess it comes down to a matter of opinion, I have no desire to appeal to the fickle and changing tastes of breeders, if Ginger is just like the dogs that were originally deemed DS, then she is a dutchie in my mind. Anyway, you asked me why I "want" her to be a DS, I think I listed practical and logical reasons for that. My concern is that someone else who has a dog like ginger will not benefit from the insight I have gained believing she is a DS because of opinions of people with an overly restricted view about asthetics, and that would be unfortunate because having a general idea of what to expect has been so helpful.

[Raven]

Gingerman,

For discussion to continue, please post photos of Ginger showing standing side and front views, as is asked by everyone to do in the Forum Rules for "Is My Canine A Dutch Shepherd."

Many thanks.

[gingerman]

I will do, I finally retrieved my digital camera from a cleptomaniac x roomate, thanks

[Dutchringgirl]

I just wrote a big reply and it didnt go through

Anyway,

I am perplexed as to why you are so insistent that she is, I highly respect the people on this board on their opinions of the dogs here.

The traits you have described Ginger having do not really describe a DS. Mine are not submissive, they would eat a cat in a heartbeat. Many others here too have asked for help on how to have them co exist.

Having a dog that dosnt fit into other breed standards also dosnt mean that she will just slide into being a DS. Having a mix opens the door to so many more traits to figure out. That still wont give you a good idea of what to expect. My two are so different from each other, its like night and day. Even after having a DS and Mal for many many years, I still had different things to work with after getting Sadie.