Pain Relief

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

So this actually isn't about H… more about his GSD best friend, Jakai. Jakai is 8 years old and has a lump on top of her hip. Originally it presented with a blister-like thing and the vet told her it was probably a bug bite Jakai chewed at and got infected. Antibiotics treated it and it went away. Now it's back. She is in pain and while her owner saves up to get another vet visit with x-rays to rule out HP, she doesn't know what to do with poor Jakai being in pain.

Since this has to be one of the most well-informed groups, I said I'd ask to see if anyone knew any pain relief remedies or at home things they could do while the money is gathered. She's more interested in doing all natural if she can, as she'll see the vet soon. Any ideas?

[karenz]

I'm not really sure what HP stands for so I'm not sure I would be much help. My dad's dog has arthritis in her hips. His vet told him that he could give her an asprin on the days it is really bad to help with pain. It does greatly help her pain. I've never wanted to use asprin. Some vets I've talked to say it's fine others disagree. They all say NO Tylenol. My dad also started giving her glucosamine and chondrotin. After a couple weeks she seemed to have less really bad days. But I'm not sure if that would actually work for pain. Like I said, not sure of what HP stands for this may be of no help. But I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Raven]

I think she might be referring to hip dysplasia (hip + x-rays)...in addition to the patient being a GSD, who are notorious for HD.

Lisa will likely have an answer. Sadie has dysplasia and Lisa opts for natural remedies when she can.

[karenz]

I was thinking hip dysplasia but I wasn't sure that's what was meant and I didn't want to assume. Also I think omega s3 were suggested. I'm not sure what they do exactly for hip problems but the vet had suggested that as well.

[Mobil]

Honestly, for pain, I'd have her call the vet for appropriate doses of aspirin. It's pretty effective pain relief for dogs when it's dosed correctly, and she may already have it in the house.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Yes HD = hip dysplasia. Sorry, was on my phone earlier and apparently it autocorrected. Fail.

I asked our vet today about pain relief and was told no aspirin unless in certain heart disease cases where the heart valves are super thick and even then heavily monitored and not given every day. Also, GSDs wouldn't respond to anything but the heaviest pain killers. Not sure how true that all is, as I've never owned a GSD, so the tech could have not been 100%.

I've never had to treat pain for Mr. H as he seems to not understand the concept, so this was a new one for me. I can't remember if she called her vet and got sneered at or not. Vets around here can be assholes sometimes.

[Stacy_R]

I would stay away from aspirin. Dogs can be sensitive to the GI effects (pain, bleeding, and ulceration) of NSAIDs (Rimadyl, by the way, is an NSAID).

A few questions:

1. What is she feeding Jakai (kibble/raw)?
2. Is she supplementing with fish oil? (fish oil is not only good for skin and coat, but the omega 3's are a natural anti-inflammatory working from the inside) Also, remember to give vitamin e with fish oil as the fish oil depletes the e...and e can also act as an anti-inflammatory.
3. Is the pain presenting as a joint issue?
4. Is she supplementing with any MSM, glucosamine, and/or chondroitin?

For pain associated with HD, there are quite a few natural options:
~Sam-e (this works best when given with a B-complex supplement)
~Traumeel and Zeel by Heel Biotherapeutics is a homeopathic remedy that a few people in my raw feeding group have used with success
~ Dog Gone Pain http://www.dgpforpets.com/DGP-Ingredien ... sage.shtml
~ DLPA, an amino acid, is a nutraceutical that is used to treat both depression and pain

Adding supplements (fish oil, e, msm, etc) will never hurt. I would be hesitant to treat pain, though, until I knew the what and the why. That's just my

[Mobil]

Also, GSDs wouldn't respond to anything but the heaviest pain killers. Not sure how true that all is, as I've never owned a GSD, so the tech could have not been 100%.
.

LOL. I think that might be some BS, especially coming from a tech rather than a vet. I've had a few GSDs and never once have I been told their bodies respond any differently to pain killers than any other dog.

Anyway, the reason I suggested asking the vet about aspirin is because it was something short term, effective and not too risky using the guidance of a vet, as well as reasonably priced, since it seems money is a consideration.

I hope it's all resolved soon.

[Raven]

I've never had to treat pain for Mr. H as he seems to not understand the concept

Ha. Thor's the same. He's like a Timex...he keeps on ticking. (A commercial from the 60s/70s for those who aren't as old as dirt...as I'm getting to be.) And like the Black Knight from Monty Python's The Search For The Holy Grail....

Stacy: Are the chains in ground flax seed different than wild-caught fish oil? I would suspect so, but if so, is the difference between the two significant enough to use one over the other?

[Stacy_R]

The difference in flax seed vs fish oil are the Omega-3's: ALA vs DHA/EPA.

While flax seed contains higher amounts of Omega-3's as a whole, ALA has to be converted to DHA/EPA by the body, so it's less efficient (not to mention that not all people or pets can convert ALA to DHA/EPA easily which further inhibits the process). So I would say, yes, the differences are significant enough to use fish oil over flax seed.

There's also the grain issue...if your dog is allergic to grain or you prefer to go grain free, then stick with fish oil.

And like the Black Knight from Monty Python's The Search For The Holy Grail....

It's only a flesh wound!!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I posted here this morning but apparently the forum was hungry and gobbled it up…. If you see it floating around tell it it's fired.

LOL! Love Monty Python… and yep, H is like a Timex… Or the energizer bunny.

Stacy, in response to some of your Qs:
1. What is she feeding Jakai (kibble/raw)? Kibble - Purina I think.
2. Is she supplementing with fish oil? Not that I'm aware of.
3. Is the pain presenting as a joint issue? Sort of - we assume it's from a huge lump on top of her hip.
4. Is she supplementing with any MSM, glucosamine, and/or chondroitin? Yes, as far as a supplement containing all or just the glucosamine (which I know she's mentioned) I'm not sure.

A few months ago Jakai had a weird red, slightly swollen, scabby wound on the same spot. Vet said it was an allergic reaction and she infected it by chewing it. Gave Jakai a shot of steroids and some antibiotics and it healed up fine. Fast forward to now, and it's back, bigger than ever, and seems to hurt her when you push directly on it but it otherwise un-noteworthy - just a huge lump. It's about 1.5 inches in diameter, and about the same height. It seems as if her hip is sore, whether from the spot or possible hip dysplasia, not sure. Either way, this lump is HUGE and every day Jakai seems to be in a little more pain, and the spot gets bigger and more sore. She obviously would like to take some of the edge off the pain until she can get Jakai into a vet, hopefully in the next week, but she would also prefer to keep as natural as possible. It's a totally weird thing.

[Dutchringgirl]

Sadie has double HD, so both of her hips are affected, I think her brain might be as well, but I digress.

A lump though? Defiantly do the xrays. They will be pricey but it will be well worth ruling out bone issues. The lump could be a calcium buildup? Grab the lump, if you can get your fingers around it, its not that and could be something else. Thalie has had a lump on her hip for ever so It could just be a fatty deposit.

When do you see the pain? after alot of play? Getting up? Going up stairs?

I dont give any aspirin or OTC pain meds. Bone broth soup is awesome and it has all of the Glucosomine and chondroitin it it and its all natural. I do other natural suppliments when I dont have the soup ready. Sadie runs when she sees the pot LOL

[Stacy_R]

How was Jakai when the previous lump/wound was gone? Did she show signs of pain when it healed? Is she chewing at this lump and making it worse? If the pain seems to be secondary to the lump, I would venture to guess that the pain is not joint related, though I would still get x-rays just to be sure that there is nothing else going on.

I would get this lump aspirated and sent to the lab. The fact that you mentioned it seems to be growing by the day is a concern. Typically a fatty deposit (lipoma) develops subcutaneously and is just "there" below the skin's surface (i.e. not a "wound"), and doesn't cause pain, so that is another concern (although if a lipoma is large enough and close enough to a joint it can cause pain and limited mobility). It should feel firm, but not rock hard and it should be slightly movable. A lipoma should not cause infection, hair loss, or pain. And a lipoma has to be surgically removed; it doesn't go away with steroids and antibiotics.

Everything you've said makes me think there might be something else going on other than HD (unless, of course, Jakai is chewing at herself relentlessly because of HD and causing this wound herself, but that doesn't explain the growing lump).

For pain management at this point, she may want to ask her vet for some tramadol (no, it's not natural, but it works) until she can figure out why Jakai is in pain. If it's not joint related, all of the HD/arthritis remedies aren't going to work. Tramadol is a synthetic opioid that provides pain relief without sedation or addiction and is safer than NSAIDs and is mostly for pain having limited anti-inflammatory effect. Tramadol can be given continuously or used on an as-needed basis and can cause constipation.

[Raven]

Stacy, thanks for the clarification that it needs to be converted...and that there's no guarantee an individual system can make the conversion. (With other explanations I've read, people seem more pleased to make themselves come off as scientists rather than lay people trying to convey information.)

About the fat deposit...a past dog had a growing lump and when the vet held it to withdraw fluid, it popped. She called it a fatty deposit. Anyway....

Great idea with the bone broth, Lisa. Do you have a ratio of water to bones? I'd think, for effectiveness, you'd use just enough water to cover the bones????

[Stacy_R]

With other explanations I've read, people seem more pleased to make themselves come off as scientists rather than lay people trying to convey information.

I am definitely the latter...

PS...add some ACV to the water when you make bone broth...it helps leach the minerals from the bone into the water.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

This is why I love this group… y'all know so much info!!! And I'm gagging about the burst fatty deposit…

The lump is fairly hard, but seems to move a bit under the dermis, at least it did when I touched it, or maybe that was the dermis moving over the lump... Doesn't have a lot of give to it. Jakai has been slowing down over the months in a minor yet steady decline, before the first wound, but never seemed to be in pain. Maybe after 30 minutes of playing fetch she'll want to stop, then maybe 29 minutes two weeks later… nothing tragic. Now after walks, playing, or any activity where she's moving for a bit (I'd say more than 10 minutes) she begins to severely slow down and her stance gets weird. Compared to about 5 months ago, this is a huge decrease, it's onset happening about 3-4 weeks ago.

What's weird is this lump has no signs of being chewed. Jakai normally doesn't chew herself, I'm told, so the fact she supposedly chewed the first wound was odd in itself. This one is bigger than the original wound and has no signs of scratching or chewing, no hair loss, just a huge lump almost the size of a ping pong ball (which in my head is smaller than a golf ball). To me it grows as I see Jakai at least once a week. Owner thinks I'm crazy but when you can point out a lump by standing in front of a dog, it's pretty big.

I heard today Jakai is going in for X-rays tomorrow morning at a low cost clinic which is good, but I haven't heard if the vet examined the lump yet.

To me and my opinion the facts are:
1. possible HD progression due to age, very minor declines suggesting a slow onset
2. Sudden onset pain and mobility issues with appearance of lump, tracing back about 3-4 weeks
3. Lump that grows and is a very abnormal size
4. Lump that is fairly hard, yet slightly movable, with pain if pressed on
5. previous injury to area lump resides about 3 months ago

I'm curious as to what this all is because it seems to be everything minor to something bad. Hopefully in a few days there will be an answer. I pass all the info or recommendations you give me to the owner and I haven't had a chance to ask what she's tried yet.

[karenz]

My dad's do Mia had a lump that appeared suddenly. It grew to the size of a tennis ball in about a week. It was where her front leg met her chest. We feared the worse because of how quick it grew and how big it was. It didn't seem extremely painful when pushing on it. Just moderately painful. It caused her to limp and not want to play. Turns out it was a fatty lipoma. Not cancerous. Come to find out it hurt and made her limp because it was just as big inside as what we were seeing outside. It was pressing on nerves and limiting the motion of her leg. It was removed. It had to heal from the inside out which took several weeks. After it healed no more pain and back to frisbee. It sounds similar. It's hard to describe how it felt. Firm but not rock hard. Moved slightly but was hard to tell if it felt attached.

[Stacy_R]

t caused her to limp and not want to play. Turns out it was a fatty lipoma. Not cancerous. Come to find out it hurt and made her limp because it was just as big inside as what we were seeing outside. It was pressing on nerves and limiting the motion of her leg.

This could very well be what is going on with Jakai if it is on/near the joint. Lipomas typically do not cause pain unless they are on/near a joint where they can interfere with nerves, etc. And poor Jakai could also be getting a double-whammy...HD + lipoma.

Kira - Please let us know what she finds out...this is like a mystery!

[Dutchringgirl]

wow, this odd. Thalies lump is hard and I can grab it but there has never been any pain. I dont like that this is progressing so fast. Depending on the breeding of the dog, many GSD have been over bread and do get HD, not to judge or bash , but I have seen a lot of badly bread GSD.

If the pain is after alot of play, it could very well be HD.

Ill find my recipie for the Bone broth soup. yes, you put ACV to help get the good stuff out of the bone. Put a natural chicken in a crock pot and cover with water, carrots, celery, onion, cook for at least 24 hours, then discard everything but the soup. I just love it, and will just warm some up and drink it.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

So I have the verdict, if I understand it correctly. Her phone was sending text messages out of order. X-rays say Jakai is a victim of severe arthritis. The lump on her hip is actually her joint protruding. Apparently, the socket isn't completely round, so has been slowly wearing away on her joint, and now the joint isn't round. "The deformation of the two has caused the ball part to protrude. Vet prescribed Rimidil. Now Jakai is on that plus glucosamine tablets and fish oil (I reminded her about the vitamin E - anyone know about how much of each she should be giving?).

Jakai is a candidate for hip replacement, which would be the only thing to really save her, but the owner cannot afford it as around here it's 5,000$ a hip. Vet refused to prescribe narcotics for long term pain management so Jakai can only be on anti-inflamatories and all natural supplements.