aggression????

[johninny]

for hated procedures [ at least til it becomes a very accepted routine ], i make sure that there is a PILE of treats within easy reach and well within the dog's awareness [ a foot or 2 in front of his eyes if possible ]. the dog gets one or 2 for starting without much fuss and gets one as frequently as i can manage as long as everything is going perfectly; if not perfect, treats stop. works perfectly as long as dog is willing to be bribed for that particular procedure [ i.e., TD would not accept treats if he was being bribed to do something that he simply found unacceptable - like cooperate with veterinary procedures beyond examination.]

i find, for most things, the dog finds it an even trade: ''a bath!?! you know i HATE that. well, does our usual deal apply? oh, ok, i see them. then let's get it over with.'' each dog usually measures out precise amounts of tolerance for a certain amount of treat. when fed-up enough during the bath or whatever, dog will point to the pile telling me it is time for another. so informative and so funny. it is DSs' sense of fairness [ or even economic worth, in this case ] that i find one of the most fascinating things about the breed.

[karenz]

Johninny since you brought up vet procedures I am curious how you deal with that. This behavior I am dealing with started with the vet when Xander was a few months old. He has just recently tried it with me. He always does the teeth showing and nipping at the vet. I take him to the vet for happy visits and he gets treats from the vet when we visit. He does wonderful until the vet tries to do something to him. I'm actually dreading taking him for his yearly shots. They want me to muzzle him when I bring him in. I really don't want to use a muzzle but it may be my only option.

[Dutchringgirl]

My vet has muzzled Sadie. It dosnt bother me, I dont need any problems. Sadie never shows teeth or growls but is very squirmy and does get anxiouse. Id rather they muzzle her and then do what they need to do with out any problem. the muzzling dosnt seem to add to her anxiety. The vets are great with her but if they feel better then the dog will feel better.

[karenz]

That makes me feel better dutchringgirl. I think I am going to buy a muzzle and put it on before we leave the house. I'm afraid if they try to put it on it would be trouble. And of course I guess I will have to put it on at times when we aren't going to the vet so he doesn't associate the muzzle with the vet.

[Raven]

I think I am going to buy a muzzle and put it on before we leave the house. I'm afraid if they try to put it on it would be trouble. And of course I guess I will have to put it on at times when we aren't going to the vet so he doesn't associate the muzzle with the vet.

I muzzle train my dogs. (I don't like the muzzles at the vets; in order to be as bite-proof as possible, they have to be tightened too much and the dog can't breathe well if it gets stressed.) I used to use a basket muzzle, but I switched to a high-quality, leather fight muzzle. Saved up for it because I thought it was worth it. There are some muzzles that cinch to the collar that I've seen; we zip-tie his.

So, yes, not only muzzle train your boy, and once he is, do things you normally would do with him (heel work, basic OB, etc.) when he has it on. Make it part of daily, ho-hum life. Until he accepts it without question, don't let him learn he can slip it off himself. Until then, stay close with "leave it" as your ammo.

I say "in" and Thor puts his head in and waits while I fasten everything.

Thor never had a problem at the vets until last time and I was glad he had our muzzle on. He was so used to the muzzle at that point that he never tried getting if off.

[karenz]

Can you recommend some brands. Maybe give me a few different ones to look at. I don't know anything about muzzles. I've never had to use one on any of my dogs before. I certainly don't want to get one that is going to be uncomfortable or cause breathing problems. The last thing I want to do at this point is make this situation worse. It's already stressful enough.

[Raven]

Mike and Thor 023.JPG (2.64 MiB) Viewed 6569 times

The only source I can remember at this point is Leerburg. And that's where I got the leather fight muzzle. Back then, they were going for $300+++ elsewhere, but I got mine from them for $170ish. REALLY, REALLY well-made and there's room to breathe. A fingertip might be able to get in there in a scuffle, but it'd have to be a small finger.

A dog should be measured for a muzzle. Leerburg usually offers any information you'd need on any of their items. If you still had questions, you can call/email. You could also do a search on their forum for information, but their forum is huge and there might be many threads with your key words.

Going to search for a photo of Thor in his....

[karenz]

Thanks for the pic. That helps alot. I will definitely have to save up some money for one of those. However, I need to get something and start working with him now since we only have about 6 weeks until shots. I saw some very similar online for under $50. I may have to get a cheaper one for now and upgrade later. I'm assuming the key points are the holes to allow for breathing and the way the straps are so it stays in place.

Also any suggestions on how to introduce the muzzle. I'm guessing let him see and sniff maybe start off sliding it on without buckling? I have a feeling he is not going to be fond of it.

[simbathedog1]

I resorted to a muzzle for vet visits. I got a basket type muzzle that hooks to the collar as well as around the neck. He can eat, drink, pant. I started by putting food in my hand with the muzzle over it so he had to stick his nose into the muzzle to get the food. No big deal to him.

[karenz]

I'm looking at this one to start off with. Does anyone see anything about it that would be bad?

[LyonsFamily]

The muzzle training is a good idea, for everyone's protection. It'll also give you some time to really train what you want. If the dog is properly conditioned to the muzzle, it's no different than putting on a collar or harness. Odin is trained to a basket muzzle and he'll wear it into a store or clinic and has no problems with it. He actually dives right in when I pull it out. I keep it on him sometimes because people like to allow their dogs to "play" in the waiting room and it keeps a lot of the idiots away when Odin's in for a back checkup and not feel very friendly. It's also nice when he has an 8am appointment and I'm not feeling very friendly either.

I'm going to go against a few here and say this behavior isn't something that needs to be corrected. It's something that needs to be prevented. You need to start from the beginning and find out why the behavior is occurring. The nipping is too much, that's true, but a lip curl and a growl are all just signs of communication that you're doing something he doesn't like and the nipping is coming from you pushing when he's clearly telling you to stop. Punishing him for those signs may teach him that giving a warning isn't acceptable. I for one don't want a dog that will just grin and bear it 99% of the time, because that 1% when there is no warning is often way worse than having a warning and knowing when to back off. Take the lip curling and growl as communication. He's over threshold and you need to back up and reassess the situation. Don't let it turn into him pushing you to get his way, but take it as you have a hole in your conditioning that needs to be worked on and next time approach it from a different angle.

It sounds like you're working on a different angle with conditioning to the brush, which is great. Another thing you can try is to work object identification with him using the brush and then shape a retrieve. When he starts identifying and bringing the brush to you, you can easily add brushing itself and put the whole grooming session on cue to make it a trained task rather than a forced chore. This is how I passed the CGC with Elli. She has a really bad habit of mooing when someone picks up her feet. I trained her to bring her brush and taught her to pick up her feet when I hold out the brush. She thinks the whole thing is a chained trick that she eventually gets rewarded for. The cool part about a behavior chain is that the reward for each behavior is getting to do the next behavior which eventually leads to the reward.

Rather than correct the bad behavior, teach what you want him to do, proof it in different environments and set ups, and correct for going against that behavior.

Rather than using a broad criteria of just wanting him to accept ear cleanings, teach it as part of a chained exercise i.e. a stand stay, down stay, etc. A leash pop for a lip curl during an ear cleaning is really confusing for a dog. I prefer a stand stay for most, because that's what the techs use for a restraint at the clinic. For paw examinations, you can teach the dog to give paw and vary the trick into giving the paw backwards, farrier style. If you remove all examinations at first and make it a game, it'll be fun during exam time. If you need to correct down the line, you'll be correcting for all movements outside of the stand stay and it becomes more clear that the dog is just expected to sit still no matter what.

The thunderstorm analogy was mentioned earlier. No, you wouldn't coddle a dog that was afraid of thunderstorms, but you wouldn't give him a leash correction for whining or hiding either, would you? I know I personally would work to create a safe environment away from the storm and over time condition my dog to loud noises and changes of lighting so that we can move closer and closer to threshold without eliciting a response.

[LyonsFamily]

As for the muzzle, you don't need anything fancy if you're not training for muzzle stuff in sport work. I use the black rubber baskerville muzzles. They loop onto the collar, so it's very hard to get off. If you condition right, the dog won't be struggling to get it off anyway. They allow for eating and drinking and the soft rubber doesn't hurt. http://www.petco.com/product/119470/The ... AsAv8P8HAQ

Odin is a size 4. Elli is a size 3, but the 4 still fits her decently.

This is a good video on conditioning to the basket muzzle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGLKrQaabRI

You can use this for conditioning to the brush and cotton balls too. Instead of by the muzzle, you can train the dog to touch it's paw or back to the brush. I taught Elli to use her paw if I said feet or her cheek if I said brush. You could add a head tap to the cotton balls and eventually shape it to an ear tap.

[Raven]

Mike and Thor 011.JPG (2.61 MiB) Viewed 6563 times

This is the plastic basket muzzle I used to use, the one Stephanie mentioned.

Going the leather fight muzzle route was worth it for me because we get in at the vet's before the first morning appointment, before other people show up with their dogs/animals (because of Thor's DA/AA), yet you can't always avoid other dogs or animals. So, I wanted a security that you may not need for Xander.

When working to condition him, just make sure you are always in a calm, self-assured state. If you're not, do something with which you are both familiar to try and get in the groove, then start with the new thing in a small way, then stop. Do it again later.

Someone here said they put the muzzle over food in their hand. That's a good approach. I had let the muzzles hang out on the floor in different places a couple days. (Xander's bed, too, maybe?) I didn't add any excitement to it. It's just an object I was putting here or there, no big deal. Then I put a good treat inside the muzzle and let him go in to get it. Then I added "in" as he was going for it. Worked up to doing those daily, ho-hum things...OB, heel work, etc.

Your guy may have no difficulty adjusting to having a muzzle on. Without training, though, the muzzle can be confusing, restrictive and unnatural to dogs when you need it the most (e.g., vet appointment). Have him wear it around people he's comfortable with, too, once training gets underway.

Done correctly, any kind of stuff like this is great at promoting their sense of feeling safe with you. Eventually, anything you have in mind for them they're okay with...they trust their mom/dad. (I just stated the obvious. Sorry.)

[Stacy_R]

The thunderstorm analogy was mentioned earlier. No, you wouldn't coddle a dog that was afraid of thunderstorms, but you wouldn't give him a leash correction for whining or hiding either, would you? I know I personally would work to create a safe environment away from the storm and over time condition my dog to loud noises and changes of lighting so that we can move closer and closer to threshold without eliciting a response.

In my analogy to the thunderstorm I was referring to the comment "he gets lots of praises." The praising of a dog enduring an anxious situation or working through nervousness and or aggressive behaviors only creates more stress because all of the vocalizing...they can't think. I never mentioned a leash correction for that ...that's ridiculous to even suggest.

And we agree and disagree. Yes, a lip curl is a sign and one that should be respected. However, I believe that it should be taken in context...it is 100% relative to the situation.
If your dog doesn't like "kisses" and he gives you a lip curl, then respect it...he doesn't want his space invaded. However, for things like ear cleanings, nail trims, overall vet inspections it is better to work with the dog to help him understand that those things are necessary and safe and just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean he gets to curl his lip at me and/or nip. Somewhere in another thread (I think talking about leash reactivity around other dogs and/or people) Sharon mentioned stress and the harm it can cause physiologically. To her point, I believe it is better to train and condition in order to correct the behaviors that are concerning Karenz in an effort to reduce Xander's stress rather than merely prevent it.

[karenz]

I'm going to go against a few here and say this behavior isn't something that needs to be corrected. It's something that needs to be prevented. You need to start from the beginning and find out why the behavior is occurring. The nipping is too much, that's true, but a lip curl and a growl are all just signs of communication that you're doing something he doesn't like and the nipping is coming from you pushing when he's clearly telling you to stop. Punishing him for those signs may teach him that giving a warning isn't acceptable. I for one don't want a dog that will just grin and bear it 99% of the time, because that 1% when there is no warning is often way worse than having a warning and knowing when to back off. Take the lip curling and growl as communication.

This is a very good point. I would much rather be warned. And really think it is a response to something that hurts. That's why I have the problem at the vet. At thr second set of puppy shots he let out a terrible yelp. He was sore for two days from the shots. So he associates the vet with pain. Now he associates the brush with pain. I got a cheap soft brush that doesn't accomplish anything but he let me brush him with it yesterday with no teeth bearing. He seemed to enjoy it. As soon as I switched to the other brush the teeth came back. So it's obviously pulling. I try to be very gentle with it but with all that hair it's going to snag occasionally. Which means I will get the teeth showing occasionally. I guess it's his way of saying ouch mom that hurt.

[Mobil]

Karenz...no one was saying you were smacking your boy. Hitting came up in the thread.

to be fair, I brought it up because of this:

I'm kind of lost on a correction because he responds badly to physical corrections. I learned this quickly when he was younger. So a pop on the snout or butt escalates the situation.

I thought she was indicating having used physical methods regularly, which might have helped explain sudden aggression, so I brought it up. It looks like I was mistaken; sorry for the hoopla.

[Raven]

Karen,

I've never used a Furminator (it's on my wish list), but that might not only help Xander but it might make your grooming life easier. Others who have used it will hopefully chime in how it works and if they think that may help.

In the meantime, would scruffing up the areas with your fingertips help? That's what I do to loosen the fur (top and undercoat). Whew! Gives new meaning to "Watch the fur fly." I'm not sure if anything can eradicate even a slight hair pull here or there, but a little hair here and there shouldn't really result in being an issue. Fingers crossed.

[Raven]

I'm kind of lost on a correction because he responds badly to physical corrections. I learned this quickly when he was younger. So a pop on the snout or butt escalates the situation.

Totally missed this.

I thought she was indicating having used physical methods regularly, which might have helped explain sudden aggression, so I brought it up. It looks like I was mistaken; sorry for the hoopla.

Good catch. And you're right. Physical acts will produce some sort of reaction, even light-handed ones can over time. Fear or fear-based aggression, mistrust, fight....For every action, there's a reaction, as it's said.

The word 'pop' is used in conjunction with correction in regard to a prong. I may have been thinking about that instead.

Karen,

Thor's drive is amped on prong, even without a pop. Just the pressure of it did it. When over-threshold on prong, he'd re-direct. Once I realized the prong amped his drive, I had to switch gears, no prong...but how to correct? (I didn't correct/pop when faced with his triggers, like dogs or animals, which would have it worse.)

You'll find a way of communicating with Xander the same way I had to find a way to communicate with Thor. What's happening now is actually a good thing: nothing really bad has happened , but it's clued you in more in to him and this is going to give you a path for the future.

[karenz]

Xander definitely does not do a prong collar. That's why I had inquired about collars recently. The prong collar greatly amps him up. The martingale is working well.

The "nice" brush is going good. I'm going to have to experiment with brushes and find one that he accepts. We put ear cleaning on hold. I'd rather work on one problem at a time.

I can give leash corrections but even that is a fine line. To much or to hard gets a response of amped up craziness. This may sound silly but the best"correction" technique is acting mad and ignoring him. He can't stand it. He immediately tries to snuggle and give kisses as if to say uh oh, I'm sorry please don't be mad at me.

I feel better about the muzzle now that I see he is not the only one that wears one for vet visits. I was hoping that we could get to a point that he didn't have vet issues but I may have to accept that he isn't going to ever be a vet lover.

[Raven]

This may sound silly but the best"correction" technique is acting mad and ignoring him. He can't stand it.

It works. There you go. I have a thought, though, about toning down the acting mad, but then, I don't really know what you mean by that, how dramatic your display might be. The only reason I'd suggest toning it down is sometimes you can prep a dog to wait for that type of reaction (angry verbal as well as angry gesturing) as a guide, a cue...so...until they get it (or hear it), they keep doing what they're doing...because they haven't seen or heard what they've taken as a cue to cut the crap. I've done a lousy job of explaining that thought....Where you are now with Xander: you could consider/re-evaluate the "acting" as something you used as a launching pad for paving a different way in the present. Just my thoughts, is all.

That said, I've always employed "the look" once mutual trust and a bond was made. I never thought that Thor would turn into such a Mama's boy (or anyone's boy) or care what anyone thought. Ooooooh, but with his training and my learning how to listen, specifically, to him, he hates it when Mama isn't happy. Hates...the look. He would turn himself inside out if he thought it could be his "Un-do! Un-do!" button.