Low drive and Gangly Legs/hips?

[Jordan_Raye]

Hey everyone. I'm new to this forum. My pup Sunna just turned six months. She's a 50/50 hybrid of a Sable German Shepherd and an Aachen Dutch Shepherd. I got her from Aachen Dutch Shepherds breeder in OK. (you can find the website if you google that.) I had a great experience with the breeder.

However, this is my first shepherd. She was the runt and 4.25 pounds at 10 weeks. But the vet gave her a clear bill of health. She was less social than the other pups and got knocked around by her littermates because she was so small, so she was taken out of the litter and placed with other 6 week old pups when she was still weaning.

Anyway, she's 6 months now and is about 32 pounds. She has little meat on her and is very clumsy still. She prances instead of runs and her gait reminds me of a gangly new born animal. Like a giraffe or zebra that have little balance and stability... Her legs and hips seem weaker than they should be and I worried even though the vet has cleared her.

Second is that she had a low drive. She doesn't spook at loud noises which is great, but she doesn't try much at tug. Her bite is very weak and she doesn't try too hard before letting go. She listens well when training and is very smart. But is the rest of this stuff normal?

Thanks!

[LyonsFamily]

How did the vet clear her? Did it involve x-rays or just a physical exam? I would personally get x-rays done at about a year old send them off to OFA for pre-lims to get an outside opinion. At this age, everything is still developing, but it is something you should keep an eye on.


Did the breeder explain to you why she did the breeding? Often even with the right breeding there is a chance for hip issues or other genetic problems and with breed crosses that aren't extremely well planned out, there's an even greater chance. GSD to Dutch Shepherd is often done in working lines, but there is also a structural difference breeders have to take into account. I'm not saying that it wasn't done here, but your breeder should have a good explanation as to what she hoped the outcome would be and possibly an explanation for what you're experiencing. You might be dealing with a dog with a poor genetic combination.

Poor drive, lack of desire to tug are the opposite of what this breed is made for. At 6 months, the dog may be going into a fear period, but coordination should already be there. I would start with hind end awareness excersises. Walking the dog through a laid down ladder helps a lot as well as low jumps that the dog can step over. Swimming is also a good strength building that is easy on a growing dog's joints.

[Dutchringgirl]

I would xray as well, because the ganglyness sounds like Sadie who has double HD, not to scare you but I would xray.

I agree with Stephanie on the coordination issue. Watch for ouchiness when she gets up from laying down, going up stairs and if she gets tired. She may be a low drive dog, so I would not worry yet about that but concentrate on strengthening her rear end.

[Jordan_Raye]

Thank you both so much for your response. As far as I know the vet clearing the litter of pups was just a physical exam. So I should definitely get the X-rays.

And yes, there is ouchiness in her hind legs when she lays down. Sometimes her back legs will splay out when she walks on the hardwood floors, and I thought it was due to her feet not having traction on the floors and her being clumsy, but when they do splay out in that position it is hard for her to stand back up and she whines from it hurting. Not a good sign.

As far as why the breeder made this cross? Her explanation for me was that there was a high demand for them. It probably would've been smarter of me if I had asked her why there was a high demand, more details, etc. I was personally keen on the hybrid because I really wanted a Dutch shepherd but kept being told to start with a German shepherd since I'm a first time owner. From speaking to the breeder this mix and the expected temperament sounded great for me, and I did express my interest in a lower drive dog from the litter but I didn't think that would translate to her not having a strong bite or much desire to tug at all. I knew it'd be less than a high drive dog, but not close to none.

[Jordan_Raye]

Thanks for the advice on strengthening her hind end awareness. I'll give those a try.

[Dutchringgirl]

what are you plans for the dog? Yes, get xrays. I have rugs everywhere so Sadie dosnt loose traction. I dont like the ouch while getting up, that is a red flag. Sadie lays down alot where a normal dog will sit and hang out, she never sits.

[Raven]

This is NOT to start a discussion of the kennel; just offering you could do a search on this forum for past postings/experiences from owners who got their DSs from there. Doubtful, but perhaps the kennel might be willing to work something out regarding the amount paid for the pup (if indeed a problem is found). I don't know the specifics of the purchase (hips checked?, etc.). A reputable breeder clearly doesn't want to produce unhealthy/unsound dogs.

[LyonsFamily]

Oh the vet cleared the dog during a litter/puppy exam? Has your vet viewed the dog now that it is older? A vet check when they're puppies usually consists of a fecal, feeling for descended testicles in males, and checking the teeth and heart for abnormalities. Hip/joint/spine issues are not even apparent at that stage because the joints aren't fully formed.

I know it's a cross, but did you get a pedigree for the parents? I'd be interested to see the adults, particularly the GSDs side. I can't find much from the breeder's website. There's a huge range in GSDs from American and German show lines to the more intense Czech working lines. Searching OFA, there are only 2 Dutch Shepherds with her kennel name listed.

I don't want to turn this into bashing this particular breeder either. I have no person experience with them. I have a close friend with an Aachen dog that is happy with her and Autumn who used to frequent here has an Aachen dog and as far as I know, there aren't any health issues.

This are my big red flags regarding the breeding and they would be red flags for anyone that comes here with a dog with (seeming) health problems:
The breeder advertised the dogs on facebook as designer Dutch Shepherds. That's usually not a good sign that it was done for working reasons. I also don't like that her reason was that they were in high demand. High demand by who? Where departments specifically asking her for a lower drive or bigger DS? Was there something from the GSD that she wanted to continue on, but couldn't find a suitable working GSD, so she decided to outcross to the DS? What's her intention with the puppies? Does she compete in a sport or plan to train a few for departments?

I also recommend for anyone to research dogs on the OFA database to read official hip ratings.
Arko, who I think is your dogs father, doesn't have certified hips listed, but elbows are listed, so that makes me suspect as to maybe the hips didn't pass (you have an option on OFA to only have passing results posted). It doesn't make much sense to only do elbows in a breed that has more hip issues and most breeders get them done at the same time.

The other Aachen dog on the database is listed as having mild hip dysplasia. Now, that's not necessarily bad in itself as even two excellents can produce a dysplastic dog, but why aren't the rest of her stock and offspring being tested and listed so that there is a known percentage rate to compare?

[Dutchringgirl]

Again, not to bash, but If I saw anyone advertising any animal as a "designer X" I would walk away. I agree with Stephanie's other statements too, all red flags.

[Raven]

I only just now looked at her photo. Beautiful dog. That said, and call me whatever you want, but I "hear" a story in those eyes. Is this always her expression?

[Jordan_Raye]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all so much for your responses. They are so thorough and educational. When I was looking for a pup and found this breeder, I asked several questions and spoke to the breeder for hours. She sent me a ton of information on her litters and the parents of my pup. I'll see if I can link it at the bottom. Yes, Arko is the father of my puppy. I was understanding that his hips and elbows were checked. I didn't realize it was just the elbows. Her mother is the GSD and is named Sheba. Apparently both parents are great bloodlines straight from Germany and Holland.

I have taken the puppy to the vet a few times since I've had her, and the visits were for the vaccinations at 12 weeks and 16 weeks. During the vet visit the vet did watch her gait and notice that she seemed to walk a little odd. Like I mentioned, she does a sort of a prance about instead of a walk or a run.

She sits all the time like a normal dog and lays down on her own but when in training being told to lay down is her least favorite "job." I am wondering if it's associated with her hips. I am definitely going to get her more exams. The vet wanted me to bring her back at 6 months for a checkup (and she just turned 6mo), so would that be too soon to request xrays? Should I wait till she's a year?

As far as the breeder, She was very kind and knowledgeable and provided me tons and tons of information on her dogs. My pup even came with a puppy contract and a health guarantee, but it is only to 1 year old, which I find strange because the dog is barely at maturity then. But regardless of age, the breeder has said that if any health issues arise (like the HD) then I could return the pup. (But at that point I'm already really attached to my girl, so I don't see how that would work out anyway?)

I know that the breeder trains dogs and I believe she does so for departments too. She also told me she refuses people who call her asking about her dutches that express interest in an "aggressive dog", and how she refuses them straight out. I talked to her about the dogs for about a month before getting my pup and she really didn't seem like she was in it for the money. She really seemed to love her dogs. I do see how some of the things appear as red flags though, and I didn't know about being able to check this stuff through the OFA database.

As far as my original plans for my pup, I've always wanted a GSD growing up, and then became keen on the Dutch as I did more research on them. Except I was told over and over to start with a GSD. When I found this breeder she really seemed to be knowledgeable and so I trusted her. I am the spouse of an active duty military man who is gone frequently. So I wanted a loyal companion who is also protective. I want to get into shutzhund and personal protection, while also having a loyal, sweet affectionate companion.

Raven, I am not sure what you mean by 'hearing'' a story in her eyes? She is a very beautiful dog! And that is actually the best, clearest picture I have of her. That is not always her expression. Her normal expression is typcally perked ears with her tongue hanging out the side of her mouth. lol

It looks like I only have the pedigree info for Arko. And it's really long. Too long to copy and paste her. I could forward it to your email if you're interested.

[LyonsFamily]

It looks like I only have the pedigree info for Arko. And it's really long. Too long to copy and paste her. I could forward it to your email if you're interested.

I found Arko's pedigree on the BRN database. I was more curious about Sheba's.

[LyonsFamily]

arko aachen.pdf

(205.64 KiB) Downloaded 1368 times

Here's an easier look at Arko's pedigree.

[Dutchringgirl]

your next step should be xrays to clear up any idea about her hips. Sadie will not lay down like a regular dog in a down, she cant bend her hips, well she can but it hurts. when she lays down she is always on a side.

[Jordan_Raye]

Yeah I am definitely going to get Sunna xrays.
I'm going to schedule a check up this month but I'm not sure if I should wait till 1 year to request xrays since she's still developing?
And I'm also going to email the breeder and request Sheba's pedigree.

[Dutchringgirl]

I would x ray now. it will show, I had Sadie xrayed before a year and it showed up in both hips

[Jordan_Raye]

Oh great. I'll be sure to get that done soon then. Thanks for all the help!

[Dutchringgirl]

great, keep us posted !

[LyonsFamily]

After 7 months old, the reliability of hip x-rays go up to 94%, so you should be fine to get x-rays soon. I would make sure where ever you go knows how to do correct positioning for hip x-rays and have OFA do a prelim evaluation on them. Most vets that deal with a lot of breeders, especially repro specialists usually have well trained staff. It's one thing to have your general practice vet tell you what they think, but OFA uses a team of experts to evaluate and score. Also, make sure you view the x-rays before paying.
Below is a good link to show what correct positioning looks like. If you have to sedate your dog (sometimes it's hard to manipulate the hip to the correct position in an injured dog without sedation) make sure the vet uses digital, and ask if you can see the x-rays as they're taken so you don't have to sedate again if the positioning is off.
http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

There's also a great facebook group to post hip x-rays on for more critiques while you're awaiting OFA's decision. https://www.facebook.com/groups/507365132668343/

[Jordan_Raye]

Thank you so much for the information. All of those details and recommendations are very helpful. I wouldn't have known otherwise.

I should view them before paying to ensure the positioning is correct, is that right?