Recommended Breeders for Future DS? Average Cost of Puppy?

[Knichtus]

Hello I had posted some time ago wondering if my dog was a DS cross, we have settled with Kuma being some weird Akita-ACD cross maybe. We adopted another girl a year later which they claimed is a HuskyxDS cross though we aren't completely sure, shes been a noisy, mouthy, prey driven, ball obsessive, muzzle punching nut and I love her. She has to be some kind of shepherd at least. LOL

Right now I am looking to get a pure DS or Malinois, I have a Malinois breeder that was recommended to me by a person I had been talking back and forth with for awhile on tumblr. And had been talking with one of people at Vandalia Kennels about what I am looking for and my aims with a DS.

This year I am looking at nearby IPO and Mondioring clubs that I am thinking joining or at least visiting since i am interested getting into the sports before acquiring a puppy. We are also moving and I rather wait about a year once we are settled in our new house before introducing a dog.

I will be heading to my dog training certification course which will be either this fall or in the spring next year which will be introducing me to also canine nosework, SAR, police K-9 and protection sports training.

I've been looking into a DS/Malinois for while, like years. LOL I've been reading, following blogs, have met some malinois and one awesome DS mix, watching videos, gathering training articles. I am interested in learning decoy work, and at some point training military working dogs if I get a chance.

Both the Malinois and DS have captured my interest especially as a protection sports dog or sports dog in general. I bike almost every day with my dogs and spend quite a bit of my time training and working them, trying to mold them into the best dogs they can be weather that be working on body awareness, conditioning, obedience training. My favorite hobby other than art is just working and interacting with my dogs which is why I have considered it to be part of my career. I am interesting to creating more durable dog gear for these breeds as well. I love creating my own agility type equipment out of pvc and stuff,

I am looking for fairly well balanced dogs, mainly a sport DS/Malinois that when worked can turn off in the house, I don't expect that to be early on, just once they are out of the puppy stage like 2 1/2, 3 years old they develop the off switch especially if I work with teaching the dog that. I want high enough drive that the dog be prepared to anything I want to get into, but not like exemplary police dog.

I would like the pup to be fairly social but not necessarily dog park social, if anything if I go to the dog park its to play fetch in a open area without being leashed with the dog mainly focused on me. I usually just attach some 50 ft leashes and head to baseball fields anyhow with both of my dogs. Dog will mostly never be home alone, my parents would also be there to watch over the puppy, we have talked about it and i have showed them videos and explained the temperament. However this still wouldn't necessarily be a family dog, both my dogs spend 90% if not the whole 100% of their time with me. Dog should be able to hang around family but i don't need labrador level of friendliness, both my dogs aren't that in the slightest and I like it that way. Aloof but approachable is what I like.

I am also wondering how much dogs usually run for? I know Chercar sells pups for $2000 but one of the people I've been talking with about DS said that is kinda high for an unproven puppy and they sell $800 for bitches and $1000 for studs. I am just wondering what is the average cost so I can start saving up? It has been a long time since our family has considered getting dogs from breeders since we gotten such great rescue dogs. That malinois breeder I'm looking into sells to first time owners and they are about $1000-$1250 which I think is pretty fair. I can only think of paying $2000 for a started puppy that is around 3-6 months.

Any help would be appreciated thank you.

[Raven]

Judith at Seven Pines and Christie at Northwoods/Thunderhawk. You can see what I just posted under "Introductions" in a thread by 505Fire.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Forgive me but I really hate that last part, and it has nothing to do with you! 800-1000$ is WAY too low for a quality DS pup, let alone a mal. The reason why the price for a GOOD QUALITY puppy is because of the cost of the parents - testing, breeding, and work that goes into them. They're not priced high for profit for the amount of work a GOOD breeder puts into them or the pups they raise. I would say 1200-2000$ for a good puppy is the lowest and highest I would spend. Most of the lower priced pups I've met haven't been the best specimens of the breed, temperament, and workability. Let's face it, raising a stable working DS isn't just whelping the pup - it's the handling, the socializing, the environmental work that goes into it, the time and energy spend watching the pups and seeing who they develop to place them in the right homes, and the medical. It's expensive and if the price doesn't reflect that I do question the amount of work that has gone into the pup. That's just what my experience has taught me.

Also, don't get a mal. Start with a DS. Trust me. The mal will eat you alive. It has eaten a lot of very qualified dog people. The raw power and energy in everything a mal does does not translate to an off switch, even trained. The number of mals I've known with said off switch have been trained with people with years of working dog experience. I don't say this to mean; I've just seen A LOT of mal cases gone wrong.

I would also wait on the protection sports. I know of all the clubs around Dallas and if you want a break down of how they work, training styles, and what it's like in them, you can private message me. But in general you should start with a club and watch and learn for at least 6 months before starting with a dog, even a year. Learning while you go spells disaster. The reason is you need a lot more knowledge than a brief overview or class can offer, and experience is the only way to gain it. It's really hard playing catch up with a puppy and trying to progress. Especially since, as you know, there's about a thousand different ways to train and the dog will dictate which you need to use.

Do you have your eye on any lines? Any traits you like from certain dogs? I would start there to help you pick a pup from the right lines. And be patient - the right dog will come along. If the dog is raised around family it will be tolerant of them and how you socialize it would also depend on it's tolerance of others. As for drive, again, lines with help with drive but off the cuff I'd say any DS will be more than adequate to take you where you want to go, except maybe protection which requires a certain type of pup.

[Knichtus]

Forgive me but I really hate that last part, and it has nothing to do with you! 800-1000$ is WAY too low for a quality DS pup, let alone a mal. The reason why the price for a GOOD QUALITY puppy is because of the cost of the parents - testing, breeding, and work that goes into them. They're not priced high for profit for the amount of work a GOOD breeder puts into them or the pups they raise. I would say 1200-2000$ for a good puppy is the lowest and highest I would spend. Most of the lower priced pups I've met haven't been the best specimens of the breed, temperament, and workability. Let's face it, raising a stable working DS isn't just whelping the pup - it's the handling, the socializing, the environmental work that goes into it, the time and energy spend watching the pups and seeing who they develop to place them in the right homes, and the medical. It's expensive and if the price doesn't reflect that I do question the amount of work that has gone into the pup. That's just what my experience has taught me.

Also, don't get a mal. Start with a DS. Trust me. The mal will eat you alive. It has eaten a lot of very qualified dog people. The raw power and energy in everything a mal does does not translate to an off switch, even trained. The number of mals I've known with said off switch have been trained with people with years of working dog experience. I don't say this to mean; I've just seen A LOT of mal cases gone wrong.

I would also wait on the protection sports. I know of all the clubs around Dallas and if you want a break down of how they work, training styles, and what it's like in them, you can private message me. But in general you should start with a club and watch and learn for at least 6 months before starting with a dog, even a year. Learning while you go spells disaster. The reason is you need a lot more knowledge than a brief overview or class can offer, and experience is the only way to gain it. It's really hard playing catch up with a puppy and trying to progress. Especially since, as you know, there's about a thousand different ways to train and the dog will dictate which you need to use.

Do you have your eye on any lines? Any traits you like from certain dogs? I would start there to help you pick a pup from the right lines. And be patient - the right dog will come along. If the dog is raised around family it will be tolerant of them and how you socialize it would also depend on it's tolerance of others. As for drive, again, lines with help with drive but off the cuff I'd say any DS will be more than adequate to take you where you want to go, except maybe protection which requires a certain type of pup.

No no its ok! Thank you very much for the detailed reply, this is really my first time, or really my family's first time considering a dog from a breeder again after years and I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible and pick what clubs to go visit and what breeders we should go and drive to when we have a decent amount of a time. I am perfectly fine waiting, we planned either later next year or sometime in 2017. I know the one guy I met at the dog park with a service dog malinois waited about 2 years or so for his ideal dog and he said it was worth the wait.

I was thinking that with the mal, I didn't want to get a mal yet until I had the experience. Line wise, I'm still learning to read pedigrees but so far I like from what I've seen in videos and read about KNPV lines, and maybe FCI be better as a first but I'm not a person aiming to compete in conformation. I hear the KNPV lines have better nerves and are stable dogs and most of the DS videos I've watched have been of the KNPV. Especially since I really do want to get into the protect sports and Mondioring has been the one that has caught my eye. As you said their are 1000 ways to train a dog, I am not strictly R+/Force Free and I open to learn more ways to train so I will do what you say and watch and observe the clubs I have in mind. Considering that the Dutchie is a working dog, I would want the dog to be bred mainly for working ability and not looks.

I'm still learning about drives and hopefully once i start going to clubs I'll learn more, but I think I would want a dog that would work more defensively than in prey. A dog that is not focused on equipment but on the decoy. From what I understand I defensive drive is not obvious until later on in a puppies life. From the mals I have met, they have been approachable, some were very handler sensitive. I wouldn't be harsh on a dog or hurt a dog but I don't think I want a dog that would fold over from a correction in case we do have to introduce it into training. I know I don't want a dog that comes from any lines with extreme handler aggression. With my dogs I do like they give me a sign if I'm being unfair or they aren't understanding via barking or making a noise when training, this way I can evaluate myself. With my dogs we do joring, obedience, biking, and are right now working heeling and IPO commands, they move when I move, and were usually out for 2-4 hours a day. I hope this is helping! Also if it helps I am looking for a male dog since I own two girls. I'm kinda done with the female sass for awhile haha!

[Dutchringgirl]

I agree on NOT getting a MAL. I have both and although I love the Mal to death, the DS is more stable........at stable as these dogs can go. the Mal is a handful for someone who dosnt have a lot and I mean alot of experience with these breeds.

I am glad you are open to the pricing because cheap means cheap, any good quality DS will be expensive and if someone isnt going to be serious enough to spend it then they will have long term problems and the dog will suffer

[Knichtus]

I agree on NOT getting a MAL. I have both and although I love the Mal to death, the DS is more stable........at stable as these dogs can go. the Mal is a handful for someone who dosnt have a lot and I mean alot of experience with these breeds.

I am glad you are open to the pricing because cheap means cheap, any good quality DS will be expensive and if someone isnt going to be serious enough to spend it then they will have long term problems and the dog will suffer

Haha yes, at first I was considering for awhile seeing if I could foster a mal or DS before getting one, that still is open, I know with both breeds experience is required or you need to be open and ready to learn more on how to handle them and I really do want to. They have fascinated me for years, I did considered a Czech line GSD but that may be later on down the line. I'm not really mentally prepped for that amount of hair. Even with Pyrrha's husky its short enough to be manageable. (The possible DS Husky)

When it comes to cost, I just needed to know the range since I know one site sell Blue DS's for $2500 and while that was really high that might be the norm for a rare breed but I didn't like the idea of them mainly breeding for color even if they were aiming for workability. The $1200-$2000 gives me a good idea, chercar is a bit too far. I am originally from Michigan and I go up their time to time but not enough to plan a visit during a trip. I was thinking $1500-$1800 for a decent dog. I rather stay as close to Texas as possible but around tennessee is another spot since we have family and can plan a trip.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Blue's are a genetic deviance so anyone "specializing" in blues should be avoided. Blues will come up in some liters as a natural variation but I know there's a few breeders out there who sell them for more/"specialize" in them. Most breeders to my knowledge don't charge extra just because a dog is blue.

You can also fly a pup in instead of picking up, just as an addendum. I wouldn't get a dog in TX or OK unless it's from Judith, which last I heard she was breeding maybe a litter a year but may be planning more. Up in MI I would suggest Cher Car (which you've said you've looked at) or Bunkerdogs USA, who also breeds a litter or two a year to focus on quality, there's also Northwoods/Thunderhawk, Ashley Winters at Vrijheid, and up on the west coast there's Les Flores, a few people on here have his pups, and Vandalia, and of course Logan Haus. For your purposes I would avoid Chris Race of Royal Police Dogs and Land of Oz, not due to bad dogs but because they tend to be more intense and very high drive.

A DS will let you know when you're going to far. They do have some fun attitudes. Fostering a DS would be a good idea and NADSR is always looking for help in TX as we're a hot bed because of so many BYB'ers.

As far as defense drive... A dog should engage in prey first and then switch to defense. Never ever do I want a dog to engage in defense unless it's serious, as in close range attack, and even then the movement should activate prey first. When training working in defense can be dangerous and screw up the dog a lot, so should be done later as to not harm the development of the pup (unless the pup can handle it). There are a few dogs who naturally go into defense and are fine with it, just as some are more inclined to be civil.

If you're going into sport the majority of training will be in prey and not in defense. The bite becomes a game. They're trained to go for the sleeve. PPD training they're trained to go for the man and are taught to work in defense. Some in the sport world will train the dog to fight the man but never enter PPD. Some only want them to bite suits and sleeves. If you want protection but don't want to deal with the legality and huge liability of a dog who will bite a man, I would stick in sport and train a nice show of aggression. PPD and sport have similar foundations but very different scenarios and results. However, sport is a lot more fun lol.

[cordeliandemon]

"I did considered a Czech line GSD but that may be later on down the line. I'm not really mentally prepped for that amount of hair."

if thats in reference to shedding be warned! i knew DS have double coats before i got demon but ive discovered the hard way that that dosnt just mean heavy shedding, its full on moulting to the same degree as an alaskan malamute or husky.

im not sure if this is in every line, but be prepared for literal handfulls of fur on contact, long brushing sessions (training them to like long brushing sessions) and every piece of clothing/furniture and food in your vicinity getting a DS coating twice a year when the undercoat blows out
its a necessary chore but in the long run the hassle has helped demons desensitisation to touch come a long way from where it was

[Knichtus]

Blue's are a genetic deviance so anyone "specializing" in blues should be avoided. Blues will come up in some liters as a natural variation but I know there's a few breeders out there who sell them for more/"specialize" in them. Most breeders to my knowledge don't charge extra just because a dog is blue.

You can also fly a pup in instead of picking up, just as an addendum. I wouldn't get a dog in TX or OK unless it's from Judith, which last I heard she was breeding maybe a litter a year but may be planning more. Up in MI I would suggest Cher Car (which you've said you've looked at) or Bunkerdogs USA, who also breeds a litter or two a year to focus on quality, there's also Northwoods/Thunderhawk, Ashley Winters at Vrijheid, and up on the west coast there's Les Flores, a few people on here have his pups, and Vandalia, and of course Logan Haus. For your purposes I would avoid Chris Race of Royal Police Dogs and Land of Oz, not due to bad dogs but because they tend to be more intense and very high drive.

A DS will let you know when you're going to far. They do have some fun attitudes. Fostering a DS would be a good idea and NADSR is always looking for help in TX as we're a hot bed because of so many BYB'ers.

As far as defense drive... A dog should engage in prey first and then switch to defense. Never ever do I want a dog to engage in defense unless it's serious, as in close range attack, and even then the movement should activate prey first. When training working in defense can be dangerous and screw up the dog a lot, so should be done later as to not harm the development of the pup (unless the pup can handle it). There are a few dogs who naturally go into defense and are fine with it, just as some are more inclined to be civil.

If you're going into sport the majority of training will be in prey and not in defense. The bite becomes a game. They're trained to go for the sleeve. PPD training they're trained to go for the man and are taught to work in defense. Some in the sport world will train the dog to fight the man but never enter PPD. Some only want them to bite suits and sleeves. If you want protection but don't want to deal with the legality and huge liability of a dog who will bite a man, I would stick in sport and train a nice show of aggression. PPD and sport have similar foundations but very different scenarios and results. However, sport is a lot more fun lol.

Thank you so much! This has really helped, and yeah I have heard that working a dog in defense when its not ready can be harmful in its development I was definitely thinking more down the line. So probably instead I should look for look dogs that have mainly prey. I think I am getting more of an idea what i want now. Logan Haus has caught me eye frequently I really like their dogs so far from what I see in videos. I'll look into these breeders you recommended.

I'll look into fostering once we move and have more space, I definitely want to have more experience before taking on a puppy.

"I did considered a Czech line GSD but that may be later on down the line. I'm not really mentally prepped for that amount of hair."

if thats in reference to shedding be warned! i knew DS have double coats before i got demon but ive discovered the hard way that that dosnt just mean heavy shedding, its full on moulting to the same degree as an alaskan malamute or husky.

im not sure if this is in every line, but be prepared for literal handfulls of fur on contact, long brushing sessions (training them to like long brushing sessions) and every piece of clothing/furniture and food in your vicinity getting a DS coating twice a year when the undercoat blows out
its a necessary chore but in the long run the hassle has helped demons desensitisation to touch come a long way from where it was

Oh geez LOL Ok I didn't think they did the actual molting, which was with the length of gsd hair I was rather turned off by. But I think I'll be fine, Pyrrha and Kuma shed enough fur I could make an entire set of mittens, hats, and scarves with it, whats one more Dutch Shedder gonna do.

[Raven]

A lot of DSs (most?) don't shed the way other breeds are known to do, long-haired aside. There was a fairly recent thread about shedding and the DS....

My guy, for example, will get brushed for general maintenance but the only tough areas are around his hindquarters when he starts blowing the undercoat, yet it's marginal in comparison with other breeds. Occasionally, there'll be a season that produces a heavier shed. Once, he had what was previously referred to as a moult, but for my guy, that's not the norm.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

You want a pup that is balanced in drives. People won't be able to accurately tell a pup's defensive drives until later, unless guessing based on the parents or the pup is showing defensive drive naturally while young. If it is, that's not a first time working dog puppy you want. A balanced pup you can develop the drives further, and even a pup with lower drive can be brought up with the right exposure and training. A super drive-y pup with tons of prey is great but a pain in the ass to live with and a pain to train. It's great later in life, but as a first time working dog handler, I would look for a sport level dog, let them know you're a first time handler and don't expect to be winning PSA 3s or such (although if you do, awesome), but you want a dog that can work competently. My guy has a ton of prey drive and lemme tell you, you can't ever fully trust him around smaller animals or kids.

As for the shedding, here in Dallas my guy blows his coat twice a year, but is in a perpetual state of shed in the summer with the heat. Not as bad as blowing his coat. Winter seems to be easier. If the weather fluctuates like it did this spring, be prepared for lengthened coat blowing season. So basically I do weekly vacuuming and dump out a vacuum full of dog hair about roughly 3/4ths of the year, though spring and fall require bi-weekly vacuuming.

[Dutchringgirl]

thats funny that you all are saying they leave their hair around. Thalie Never left much hair until the last year or so as she got older. she is 13 now and WOW, I vacuum up about 5 dogs a week.

But with a Mal, hair should not be your top concern LOL. They dont have the "off " button that the DS has. Mine paced alot when he wasnt working. You should be ready to work them alot and work them even when they are not working

[Stacy_R]

My guy has a ton of prey drive and lemme tell you, you can't ever fully trust him around smaller animals or kids.

Ditto that...

As for the shedding, here in Dallas my guy blows his coat twice a year, but is in a perpetual state of shed in the summer with the heat. Not as bad as blowing his coat. Winter seems to be easier. If the weather fluctuates like it did this spring, be prepared for lengthened coat blowing season. So basically I do weekly vacuuming and dump out a vacuum full of dog hair about roughly 3/4ths of the year, though spring and fall require bi-weekly vacuuming.

Aaaannnnnd ditto that....

[Knichtus]

thats funny that you all are saying they leave their hair around. Thalie Never left much hair until the last year or so as she got older. she is 13 now and WOW, I vacuum up about 5 dogs a week.

But with a Mal, hair should not be your top concern LOL. They dont have the "off " button that the DS has. Mine paced alot when he wasnt working. You should be ready to work them alot and work them even when they are not working

Thats what I was talking about with the person who recommended me her mal breeder, her mal she said is not as pacey, he still paces though and needs a thorough routine, he is also a service dog but will be retiring eventually to do bite work since she got her new service dog prospect. He is one of the more stable mals she has encountered and work with. I rather stick with the DS first though and then some day get a mal though I was looking in Dutch Malinois as well. I prefer to work my way up to a mal LOL

Thank you guys! This has been helpful.

[Raven]

DSs, though, will pace like sharks in water if not kept physically and mentally active. I'm sure you know this, but just adding it for the benefit of others who might misinterpret the direction of the conversation.

[Dutchringgirl]

Look for a low drive DS. Sadie is super high drive but she will relax and dosnt pace, but that is just one example. But I have two so they do play alot and we hike and bike together so they do get tons of exercise. But , yes, do not get a MAl unless you are very experienced and working with a good trainer.

[LyonsFamily]

Elli paces even if tired out. She's very attached to my husband, but it's a one way love. If he lifts weights in the garage, she's at the door pacing until he's done because she can feel him stressed during the workout. She paces if she gets hungry and if she feels she's being ignored for Odin or by Odin. She also has a weird habit of needing her dinner bowl in the house at night and will pace until she can go get it and then when we bring it in, she goes to sleep.

Odin doesn't pace at all. He's pretty mellow and has a great off switch.

[XerxestheMagnificent]

Blue's are a genetic deviance so anyone "specializing" in blues should be avoided. Blues will come up in some liters as a natural variation but I know there's a few breeders out there who sell them for more/"specialize" in them. Most breeders to my knowledge don't charge extra just because a dog is blue.

You can also fly a pup in instead of picking up, just as an addendum. I wouldn't get a dog in TX or OK unless it's from Judith, which last I heard she was breeding maybe a litter a year but may be planning more. Up in MI I would suggest Cher Car (which you've said you've looked at) or Bunkerdogs USA, who also breeds a litter or two a year to focus on quality, there's also Northwoods/Thunderhawk, Ashley Winters at Vrijheid, and up on the west coast there's Les Flores, a few people on here have his pups, and Vandalia, and of course Logan Haus. For your purposes I would avoid Chris Race of Royal Police Dogs and Land of Oz, not due to bad dogs but because they tend to be more intense and very high drive.

A DS will let you know when you're going to far. They do have some fun attitudes. Fostering a DS would be a good idea and NADSR is always looking for help in TX as we're a hot bed because of so many BYB'ers.

As far as defense drive... A dog should engage in prey first and then switch to defense. Never ever do I want a dog to engage in defense unless it's serious, as in close range attack, and even then the movement should activate prey first. When training working in defense can be dangerous and screw up the dog a lot, so should be done later as to not harm the development of the pup (unless the pup can handle it). There are a few dogs who naturally go into defense and are fine with it, just as some are more inclined to be civil.

If you're going into sport the majority of training will be in prey and not in defense. The bite becomes a game. They're trained to go for the sleeve. PPD training they're trained to go for the man and are taught to work in defense. Some in the sport world will train the dog to fight the man but never enter PPD. Some only want them to bite suits and sleeves. If you want protection but don't want to deal with the legality and huge liability of a dog who will bite a man, I would stick in sport and train a nice show of aggression. PPD and sport have similar foundations but very different scenarios and results. However, sport is a lot more fun lol.

What about Aachen Dutch Shepherds in OK? I have seen some of their pups ranging from 800-1200 and was considering to go with one of their pups when the time is right.

[LyonsFamily]

What about Aachen Dutch Shepherds in OK? I have seen some of their pups ranging from 800-1200 and was considering to go with one of their pups when the time is right.

A good tip for any breeder is to type their name into google and see what you get. There are a lot of reviews and comments on that kennel. Many bring you back to this forum.

I have no personal experience with Aachen other than a friend having a pet DS from there registered with the continental kennel club i.e. puppy mill registry. She thought the dog came with UKC paperwork, but when it came time to register the dog for agility, she realized it wasn't. She likes the dog. It has environmental issues, but so do a lot of DS without the proper structure and training. The rest I've read online from the majority of working dog and performance folks hasn't been the greatest, but some pet people have been happy.

The red flags for me for Aachen is that their big stud has the same name as his father and the advertising on the website lists the father's achievements and Aachen has no connection to those titles, but the same name makes it sound like their actual dog has the titles.

Every puppy owner I've heard of thinks their pup's father has an IPO III, but he doesn't. At least not according to the BRN database. His dad does. A dog that they don't own. Also, Aachen Arko only has elbows posted on OFA, so it makes me question the hip rating and if he failed resulting in the score not being posted.

[Patrick]

Blue's are a genetic deviance so anyone "specializing" in blues should be avoided.

What is the downside to a "blue" Dutch Shepherd? Do they not work as well as other DS?