Very possesive over toys

[hoosierpat]

I adopted a DS today and brought him home. We're finding a few things that we're really going to have to work with him on. The most important thing that needs to be worked on is his possesiveness with whatever he picks up in his mouth, which was everything in the house today. The worst part is that he loves my fiancee's shoes. He is currently sitting in his crate with one of her favorite shoes and won't give it up. He responds very poorly to any kind of physical discipline and is fairly aggressive about defending the shoes or whatever he has. It is something that is going to have to be ironed out very quickly because we really can't be bringing out aggression when we want to get our stuff back from him. Does anyone have any recommendations for training this out of him? I've never really dealt with this kind of behavior before, it's a bad way to start our relationship. He also doesn't really do anything with the things he picks up in his mouth, he usually just carries them around. I've been working all night on trying to convince him to drop things by using treats, he doesn't really even care about them, he also doesn't seem to care much about other toys that he really likes when he has something he wants in his mouth.

Help!

[Schlussdibusti]

Can you describe his "agression".

He seems to test you and tries to take over, i.e. "I take what I want and you can't do anything about it". No so-called honey moon period here.

I wasn't used to this kind of "in your face" dominance either when I adopted Marco. I had black Labs and they "operated" with "subtle" dominance, i.e. sweet and cute, wrapped me around their paws and got what they wanted. My GSD, 26 years ago, was working to please me.

I rented a lot of Ceasar Milan's Dog Whisperer DVDs from the local library to get an understanding of what was going on and to get some confidence to face some issues I never had to deal with before.

What it boils down to is, you got to take control of the situation or he will. Strong leadership is needed and he will appreciate it. Might come handy in other areas of life too. Dogs are always in our life to teach us lessons we need to learn, even if we don't appreciate them at the moment.

[Schlussdibusti]

Just to clarify,,, The Dog Whisperer is not dog training, he calls it "dog psychology", I call it dog-human relationship 101. Here is a link to National Geographic: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/w ... whisperer/

And how did my 12+ year old black Lab take the arrival of Marco? My sweet old black Lab, who I never heard growling in his entire life, bit him on the nose the first 30 seconds and made sure Marco understood there was more where that came from When a toy, Marco was playing with fell within 2 feet of the Lab, Marco didn't dare to take it. Amazing communication, simple, fast, effective.

[hoosierpat]

I'm definitely the dominant personality in the relationship. I'm not sure if he's just testing his boundaries or what. The problem is that any kind of discipline, be it verbal or a physical correction, brings out aggression from him. We've got all the shoes put away so there doesn't seem to be anything else that he's interested in other than his toys. On the bright side, he's already learned to get into his kennel on command which is a huge relief. In fact, he's just sitting in there gnawing on a bone right now. He is definitely a little nutty about having something in his mouth. On both of the long walks we've taken today he has carried some toy in his mouth the whole time. I'm thinking that in his last home he was deprived of any kind of toys and now he feels like he needs to get his mouth on whatever he can so that no one takes it away. If that's the case, it will probably fade as time goes on and he realizes that we're not going to take anything from him.

I just don't want to push him too hard on his first day. He's in a strange place with strange new owners and a strange new dog partner and he was clearly used to being dominant wherever he was before.

[hoosierpat]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen every episode of The Dog Whisperer. I'm a big fan of the show and I agree with his training methods, that's why I know that these behaviors will go away with the proper training. It's just a little frustrating right now, there's definitely no honeymoon period here.

[Choochi]

I would not be following Cesar's advice for dealing with resource guarding unless you want to get bit and/or possibly make the situation worse then it already is. Can you tell I'm not a fan?

I remember you said you're in the Chicago area and I mentioned you're very lucky to have some knowledgable working dog people around you. This sounds like a situation that would be best served with some one professional and experienced helping you in person. This is not the sort of issue you solve with internet advice especially if without a video we are given only a fraction of required information about the situation.

You did the right thing by cleaning up all the shoes. Best thing you can do right now is to prevent any clashes from occurring in the first place especially since he is so new to you and your home. Clean up what ever he might pick up, and keep a leash and a secure collar on him while he is out of the crate in the house so that 1. you can control and possibly prevent and 2. for safety if this is true aggression.

[Schlussdibusti]

He's in a strange place with strange new owners and a strange new dog partner

Do you have another dog?

[hoosierpat]

Well he's quite a bit better already tonight. With all of the shoes put away there was nothing for us to worry about him picking up and he's got a million toys that he can play with. I think part of the solution was actually his crate. Once he figured out he could go in there and no one would mess with him he started going in there quite a bit. He actually will go into his kennel on command as well which is really nice. I was really worried earlier that we would have to force him in at first and that would have been a real problem with the aggression he's displaying. He now has brought almost all of his toys into his cage and just hangs out in there.

We do have 2 other dogs actually, one is a shepherd mix who is quite a bit bigger than him and the other is a Shih Tzu. We live in a house that's split into two living spaces and my future mother in law lives in the other space and the Shih Tzu is hers so we just closed the door that separates us and we have the two big dogs on our side. The dogs are actually getting along fairly well, there's alot of teeth showing when Vander (that's what we named the DS) gets too close but there hasn't been any biting or actual fighting.

Here's a pic of him sleeping that I just took. You can see all the toys piled in around him.

[Christie M]

Agree with Coochi 100%

Here is my favorite Cesar Milan moment to date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM. There are so many ways that could have/ should have gone differently. This dog was BEGGING for a "dog phycologist" to actually read its behavior and fix the problem. Instead it was exasperated and made worse for the next go around. Keep in mind you are seeing snipits of time - not the whole modification process, and certainly not the downfalls that result because of these techniques. Allegedly, there are many downfalls, and a great many people making lots of money cleaning up after when the cameras turn off.

This is a new dog to you, and you and your home are completely new to it. There is no reason for this dog to trust you in the slightest. Why should he feel comfortable giving things up to you? I"m not condoning the behavior, but I am saying that it will probably be better treated initially as a trust issue than a dominance problem.

While you are looking for a good trainer, start some motivational exchanges. When you walk by his crate while he is chewing his bone, get his attention, and then just drop a piece of hotdog or cheese through the bars. Then keep moving. Vary this situation in anyway that you can think of. The goal - make a positive association with your presence and him having something. He's got something great, you arrive on the scene = things get even better. Verses his current association: he's got something great, you arrive on the scene = he losses something valued and there is some conflict. The next step in the latter scenario is a dog that actively keeps you from approaching.

Ashlee Trotter of Creative Paws is a great friend of mine in Des Plaines. I can PM you her phone number and her website is http://www.creativepaws.com. I am so very glad you rescued a dog. He is so lucky to be in your home. But please seek help before taking just internet or TV advice about what could turn into a serious problem.

[hoosierpat]

Christie, you make some very good points. Part of what prompted me to create the thread in the first place was a feeling of fear. We spent a scary 2 or 3 hours with him and he had shown zero aggression at the shelter, which is where I would have expected it. This kind of aggression would have been a deal breaker for the adoption. We were dealing with a dog who was running around the house doing whatever he wanted and I didn't feel like I could correct him because it was just amping up his aggression. On top of that, my fiancee was pretty pissed about the shoes so the whole situation was really fired up. He's calmed down now and so have we so the atmosphere is much more comfortable. We are just avoiding situation where we have to take anything from him. He responds pretty well to "No" so as long as we catch him before he has it everything is ok.

[Schlussdibusti]

Part of what prompted me to create the thread in the first place was a feeling of fear. We spent a scary 2 or 3 hours with him and he had shown zero aggression at the shelter, which is where I would have expected it. This kind of aggression would have been a deal breaker for the adoption.

This is what I "read in between the lines" and what prompted me to suggest, I don't even mention the name anymore . I can imagine how it feels bringing a new dog home, it's the weekend, qualified help not available at least until Monday,..... The dog might be returned before the weekend is over.

What I like about him is that he is able to calm the dog owners with his "calm, assertive energy" thing. You watched the episodes, you know what I mean. And that helps a lot, staying calm.

I didn't see the whole episode of the video posted above (I don't have cable) But what I saw seems to be his "assessment" period, i.e. re-creating the problem to see for himself what is going on. I think it was a good move to stay calm and right with dog after the bite, i.e. showing no fear or intimitation. I would like to see the whole episode.

I think we all agree on "what you allow, you train". This needs to be fixed rather sooner than later. If the dog "learns" showing agression, i.e. intimating you, gets him what he wants, it's a slippery slope. The trainer I work with follows the same model, i.e. re-create the problem situation to fix the unwanted behavior asap.

[hoosierpat]

We are working to gain his trust and, hopefully, that will lead to him not being so possessive over his toys or anything he actually thinks is his. Right now we don't have anything of value that he can get to, so we aren't having to take anything from him and everything is good. He has learned to get in his crate on command, to stay out of the bathroom when we're in there with a simple "Out" command, to sit before going outside instead of bumrushing the door, and that's all I can think of so far but I consider that success for less than 24 hours. He and Brandy, our other dog, haven't even squabbled really at all yet either, although she's not real pleased with how close he is comfortable getting to her. My GSD and her got along well but they always respected each other's space and Vander just doesn't do that. He's also doing some marking around the house which is annoying but not the worst thing ever. We don't have any carpet because my GSD ruined it all because he couldn't hold his bowels in the last few days so we pulled all of the carpet out and threw away the rugs, so it's easy to clean any spots that he marks on. It's definitely undesirable behavior and I'm not sure how I'm going to tackle it but he's not doing it very much so it's not a huge priority. Unfortunately, both my fiancee and I were called into work today so we played with him earlier and walked him and now he's going to have to spend about 3 hours in his crate till one of us gets home. I was supposed to have the whole weekend off to work with him. He was pretty good in his crate last night, he started barking once when I think he might have heard something but stopped pretty quickly and was quiet the rest of the night. All in all, things are a lot better than I thought they were going to be at 5pm last night.

[Choochi]

I would most definetly keep him on leash then when ever he is out of the crate if he is marking in your house! Treat him like you would a puppy that needs to learn and be shown every thing from square one.

[Schlussdibusti]

All in all, things are a lot better than I thought they were going to be at 5pm last night.

Great Hang in there!

[hoosierpat]

The leash helps because he can get a little touchy if I grab him by the collar but he loves the leash because he knows it's time to go outside. I need to get a shorter handling leash though because his regular leash is about 6' (even though I really only use the last 2 feet of it) and it is annoying when it drags all over the place. I think we'll make it through ok though.

[leih merigian]

...it is annoying when it drags all over the place. I think we'll make it through ok though.

Actually, that's exactly what you want; a dragline. Cut the handle off of a regular leash, so it won't get caught up on things. I like the really thin ones for small dogs, like 1/4" thick, for draglines, 6 feet long.

Protect your other dog from him. He should not be alowed to get near your other dog. You mentioned that there hasn't even been a fight yet...well, don't let that happen. This is where the dragline comes in very handy. (You can step on it at any time.) You should be keeing him very close to you when he's not in his crate. (Another option is tethering him to you; get an old belt and put the handle of the leash thru the belt, thus keeping him tethered to you.) He moves when you move, he settles when you settle, etc. And, he's very close, so you can prevent any unwanted behavior before it happens.

[hoosierpat]

I don't expect a fight with the two dogs, in fact they're getting along very well considering his energy. I'm also not worried about her, she'll kick his butt if she feels the need and it might be good for him to be put in his place. He's not that bad in the house that I need him tethered to me either. He's pretty well house trained and there's nothing left for him to get into that he's at all interested in.

[Choochi]

He's not that bad in the house that I need him tethered to me either. He's pretty well house trained .

Is he not that bad in the house and pretty well house trained or is he marking in the house? To me those are mutually exclusive.

[hoosierpat]

He's not peeing all over the house, he has marked twice, once on his first day and once yesterday when I didn't let him out in the morning immediately after I let him out of his cage, that was probably my fault but it was definitely a mark and not just the morning pee. Other than that, he has generally respected the boundaries of the house. We're still working on a mutual respect relationship. He is getting much better, but it's like having a full size puppy around the house, lots of energy and a lot of intensity. He can be pretty sweet when he's worn out but it usually doesn't happen till then end of the night. I'm having trouble coming up with things to do with him to wear him out. I take him for a walk literally to the end of town and back when I get home, that takes about an hour but doesn't wear him out at all. I pulled my bike out today and rode around the driveway with him. He just doesn't know what to make of it and I'm not at all comfortable riding at night with him attached to me. If we go running, I'm going to tire out well before he will. I can't put him outside to run because we don't have a fenced in yard and I don't trust any kind of tie out. We have a large kennel next to the garage but the only time I put him in there he started howling and pacing and looked very upset and I don't want him to associate the kennel with punishment. I'm not sure what else to do in the winter. It's dark and the dog parks are closed when I get home. Any ideas?

[Choochi]

I'm having trouble coming up with things to do with him to wear him out. I take him for a walk literally to the end of town and back when I get home, that takes about an hour but doesn't wear him out at all.

Walking doesn't tire dogs out unless maybe we're talking about some thing like a shih tzu. It can be a great mental and social activity and is good because the dog gets exposed to the environment, but it is not an aerobic activity and that is what you need to tire out a Dutch Shepherd or any other working breed. He needs to run.

I pulled my bike out today and rode around the driveway with him. He just doesn't know what to make of it and I'm not at all comfortable riding at night with him attached to me. If we go running, I'm going to tire out well before he will.

Those are both good. Sounds like it's some thing you need to work on but I would say biking will be your best bet. Can you do a morning bike ride? I would start gradually and slowly increase the speed and distance, but an hour long bike ride at a nice trotting pace would serve you much better at taking the edge off him.

I can't put him outside to run because we don't have a fenced in yard and I don't trust any kind of tie out.

How about putting him on a long line. You can pick up some rope from a hardware store, make sure it's secure so it doesn't snap, and make sure it's not thin (even if it's strong) as that could hurt him and you if it gets wrapped around your legs or him. That will give you some more freedom and he can basically run in circles around you, you can play ball with him. Since he's showed some possession issues I would bring at least two even 3 or 4 balls. Chances are he will want to play ball, he may turn out to be a natural retriever and will happily bring the ball back to you for you to toss it again, or he will hog it and not want you near it. In that case you take out another ball and toss it. If he picks that up too and hogs both, you've got a 3rd. There's only so much stuff he can hog or stuff in his mouth.

We have a large kennel next to the garage but the only time I put him in there he started howling and pacing and looked very upset and I don't want him to associate the kennel with punishment. I'm not sure what else to do in the winter. It's dark and the dog parks are closed when I get home. Any ideas?

Unless you have a treadmill in that kennel, how is he supposed to exercise himself in there if he doesn't do it in the house? It's just another 4 walls. The vast majority of dogs will not exercise themselves if you put them out in a kennel. If you have two dogs they might play with each other, but a single dog will either sit there bored, become destructive, or bark/howl for attention.