Poll Training

[HARNW76]

I'd like to know if anyone is familiar with poll training. I'd like to know what it is and hear opinions on whether it's a good training tool for protection dogs.

[Christie M]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Are you referring to using a backtie to attach the dog to?

[HARNW76]

Christie,
The explanation that I got wasn't very clear, which is why I'm posting the question here. However to answer your question I believe you are right. And the backtie is very short, not allowing the dog to move away from the pressure. From what I was told, so much pressure is put on the dog that many of them will soil themselves. Apparently it's suppose to make the dog fearless and willing to bite under the most extreme circumstances. Does this ring a bell?

[Geremy]

i don´t know this kind of training.
but in my opinion, a strong dog, how is in faith with his handler is willing to bite unter extream situations everytime.

i think how are not strong, and are often unsafe are not realy to use for doing jobs during extream situations. so you have to think about "is the dog happy in his job?" for protection sport it´s enough when the dog wants to bite during normal situations. for military/police dogs how are have problemes, sometimes it´s better to give them another job.

[alspyce]

Something like the old Kohler method, used to "bring around" a very shy animal maybe????

[HARNW76]

i don´t know this kind of training.
but in my opinion, a strong dog, how is in faith with his handler is willing to bite unter extream situations everytime.

i think how are not strong, and are often unsafe are not realy to use for doing jobs during extream situations. so you have to think about "is the dog happy in his job?" for protection sport it´s enough when the dog wants to bite during normal situations. for military/police dogs how are have problemes, sometimes it´s better to give them another job.

Steph,
I haven't seen this traing done yet, but it was explained to me by someone who has seen it done many times. I'm told that it is used on strong dogs to make sure they will always bite, no matter how extreme the pressure. My first thoughts when hearing about this training were the same as your's. I'll be able to tell more when I see it done. Right now I'm not so sure it's a good way to train.

[HARNW76]

Something like the old Kohler method, used to "bring around" a very shy animal maybe????

Yes, I think this sounds like something Kohler would have used. It sounds like the dogs have so much pressure put on them that they bite just to turn off the pressure. To me this isn't true civil aggression that the dog is displaying, but avoidance. In other words, the dog would avoid the extreme pressure by moving away if he could, but because he is on a very short back tie he can not. That leaves the dog two options. He can either lay down and surrender with a broken spirit or he can fight back by biting. Either way it seems like he's just trying to find a way to turn the pressure off. I have not seen this done yet, so this is only my guess. Right now I'm looking for all the insight that I can get, so thank you for responding to my previous post.

[Choochi]

Either way it sounds like it would either break any weaker or even average dogs who with other methods would have hope of being built up, or it will create unstable fear biters, and junk yard dogs. Unfortunately I have seen people put this type of pressure on young dogs and dogs that simple don't have what it takes to handle that sort of work mentally and the results are abysmal and sad every time. The type of dog that could go through this training and come out the other end still mentally stable is a one in a million dog and with those dogs you don't need to go to such drastic measures to create that stability. It either is there or it isn't. Breaking a dog does not build it up and does not create real confidence.

Even if a dog manages to mentally survive this, what makes you believe that just because a dog is forced into conflict by being tethered he will then choose to enter that same conflict when given the freedom to escape it. If any one is relying on this as a means of "creating" real life confidence they could find out at the worst possible time that their dog will run for the hills when given the chance to make that choice.

I would not only not condone this training, I would not associate myself with any one who can justify putting a dog through this as an effort to create some thing that isn't there. It's dog abuse.

If you truly need a dog of that caliber who can take extreme pressure under real life scenarios, do you want the equivalent of a confident marine with professional training who has mental stability to stand up to pressure, or do you want a reactive psyched out abuse victim backing you up?

This kind of training does not make sense any way you cut it. It's a poorly justified excuse for some one to pound on a defenceless dog.

It's one thing to have a mature stable dog that has already proven himself and to put extreme amounts of pressure on them during training to have them ready for real life working deployment, but even that is done gradually and progresses only if the dog is ready to do so. Attacking a dog passed a point where it has surrendered with hopes it will suddenly muster up courage and discover some hidden source of confidence and from there on will become a confident and stable dog is beyond ridiculous.

[HARNW76]

Either way it sounds like it would either break any weaker or even average dogs who with other methods would have hope of being built up, or it will create unstable fear biters, and junk yard dogs. Unfortunately I have seen people put this type of pressure on young dogs and dogs that simple don't have what it takes to handle that sort of work mentally and the results are abysmal and sad every time. The type of dog that could go through this training and come out the other end still mentally stable is a one in a million dog and with those dogs you don't need to go to such drastic measures to create that stability. It either is there or it isn't. Breaking a dog does not build it up and does not create real confidence.

Even if a dog manages to mentally survive this, what makes you believe that just because a dog is forced into conflict by being tethered he will then choose to enter that same conflict when given the freedom to escape it. If any one is relying on this as a means of "creating" real life confidence they could find out at the worst possible time that their dog will run for the hills when given the chance to make that choice.

I would not only not condone this training, I would not associate myself with any one who can justify putting a dog through this as an effort to create some thing that isn't there. It's dog abuse.

If you truly need a dog of that caliber who can take extreme pressure under real life scenarios, do you want the equivalent of a confident marine with professional training who has mental stability to stand up to pressure, or do you want a reactive psyched out abuse victim backing you up?

This kind of training does not make sense any way you cut it. It's a poorly justified excuse for some one to pound on a defenceless dog.

It's one thing to have a mature stable dog that has already proven himself and to put extreme amounts of pressure on them during training to have them ready for real life working deployment, but even that is done gradually and progresses only if the dog is ready to do so. Attacking a dog passed a point where it has surrendered with hopes it will suddenly muster up courage and discover some hidden source of confidence and from there on will become a confident and stable dog is beyond ridiculous.

Your thoughts are the same ones that I had while listening to a trainer explain this method to me. I haven't seen it done or what a dog looks like after going through it, but it doesn't make sense to me either. I'm not a professional trainer so I'm trying not to criticize methods I don't understand. That's why I'm asking for insight from those of you who have seen and done much more then I have with dogs. But until I see differently I don't see that there is any up-side to this type of training. Not for the dog or the dog owner. I just don't get it.

[Christie M]

This method is also called table training....and I am sure many other things.

I think that with this method, there is some value and a high potential for abuse.

On one hand, the dog is put in a situation where it must independently react and work off of its own confidence. It is fight or flight, with no flight option. I think it can build confidence in a dog that relies on its owner too much. Also, I think there are many dogs who are trained for "sport" who never take things seriously. And that's fine for many people. But this situation can makes things very real to the dog. It also provides a very structured framework that the decoy/helper can trust so they can get close to civil the dog without fearing getting bit. So I think it can have some benefits when done right, for the right dog, and at the appropriate time in the dog's training.

That being said, many, many personal protection trainers use it in horrible ways. I have always said that I can make any dog bite me. Back it into a corner enough. Make it fight for its life enough, and it will bite. I would never do that and would never condone that. But a great many people make a living by creating fear biters and this is the number one method that they use.

[HARNW76]

Christie,
Thank you for your insight. I'll keep everything you've pointed out in mind when evaluating this particular helper and his methods. Like people, all dogs have their limits of how much pressure they can take before braking. And a dog that has had it's spirit broken or has been turned into a fear biter does no one any good. Especially the dog.

[LyonsFamily]

If you look up table training on youtube, there are a ton of videos. I don't participate in bite work with my own dogs, so I don't know enough to comment on it at all. I do read a lot of the working dog forums to figure out what I might want to do when I get a puppy someday though, and just read about table training last night. There was a discussion on the pedigree database forums about it that you might find useful. Most of the posters over there have GSD's and do Shutzhund, but the thread has a few videos they consider "good."

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.r ... pplication

Leerburg, though I never take anything posted there as an absolute truth, also has an article on table training worth reading. http://leerburg.com/tabletrain.htm

[HARNW76]

Stephanie,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. A couple of days ago I asked Cindy at Leerburg about poll training. That's what it was refer to by the trainer that way speaking with me. She didn't recognize the term so she wasn't able to help. So thanks for putting that link in your post.
It was good to see a couple of samples of what this training may look like. From what I was told the pressure that is added by some trainers can be much much more then what was in these videos. Thanks again for sharing the information that you've collected, it was a help to me.

[LyonsFamily]

Stephanie,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. A couple of days ago I asked Cindy at Leerburg about poll training. That's what it was refer to by the trainer that way speaking with me. She didn't recognize the term so she wasn't able to help. So thanks for putting that link in your post.
It was good to see a couple of samples of what this training may look like. From what I was told the pressure that is added by some trainers can be much much more then what was in these videos. Thanks again for sharing the information that you've collected, it was a help to me.

Glad it could help. I'm an agility lady myself, so I just try to read about other sports to find cross training ideas. I'm not sure how I landed on that thread, but the videos made Odin go nuts listening to, so at least the chaos here was worth something. I literally just read about that the night before and saw your post and was like oh that sounds like what I just read about!