growling and almost biting me

[fastdb]

Hey,

Kessel, is my five month old ,Malinois dad, DS mother.He is challenging me in a big way.
I have isolated him from me,negative,I have tried to tire him out retriving the ball.
The next day he will be back nipping me from behind on the legs,when I turn around
he will bark and growl. How do I train him out of this?

Michael

[LyonsFamily]

This is a pretty loaded question. Without being there in person it's hard to evaluate. My first suggestion would be to up the exercise level. DS and mals need a lot of stimulation and just playing fetch one day isn't going to cut it. What does your daily exercise/training routine consist of? You mentioned that you tired the dog out and then the next day it repeated the same thing. Did the behavior stop on the day you played ball? If it did, then you just need to repeat that or something similar everyday, multiple times a day. You can't roll over stimulation. What you did yesterday doesn't matter today, especially when it's something simple like fetch.

Also, this is a puppy, they have puppy antics. Puppies love to tug on pants and jump on people and will continue to do so until they mature a bit and are trained to do something else. Instead of thinking, how do I train this out of him, think what else could he be doing instead. It's hard to nip someone in the rear when the dog is in a down-stay or place halfway across the room.

This could also be fear based, since it is coming from the rear. Your best option would be to seek out a reputable trainer in your area experienced with working breeds. A lot of your problems would likely be covered in a basic puppy class. If it's more than that a few private lessons would get you off to a great start.

[HeatherH]

Hi

If the problem is over energy.

I had a similar problem with Dutch (13 months) when he was younger (say 6 months). I find he can be like that too with me if he hasn't been exercised enough. We run him through the valley every day for a hour more so on the weekend. I sometimes get that he hasn't had enough. My solution is to train him at that point or/ play fetch. I differentiate training and playing buy telling him “We’re going to learn a little" then bring treats and a leash. When playing I say "time to get your toys". So they hear things and associate.

If he's being mischievous
(not mixed up with not having respect) territorial

You need to watch your body language and your mindset. I'm very calm minded when I want him to do something, play train put in his harness for a walk. Not "OMG here we go with this dumb harness thing". They pick up on that. They are very sensitive dogs that why they're good at tracking and training.

Make sure they are in front of you and calm and down when you’re playing. Even if you play fetch they should be down and still that way they can jump up at you.

If they don't stop all together and tray again later.

I hope that made sense.

H

[centrop67]

Do a search on the forum for "Crazy Hour", and you'll see some of the discussion on this topic.

And, hour is only loosely the duration.

I believe this is attention seeking behavior by an adolescent canine, and it is likely the result of under-stimulation, as Stephanie said.

My Radar is ~18 months old now, and this is similar to what happens on days in which we have only done our two walks with no training or vigorous tug sessions. It starts with a whine, then a drawn out growl, then barking, and then nipping.

I do several things to try to deflect this behavior.

One of the things that helps us with this problem is that we worked early with him on relaxation. This involves having him "down" on a towel, and simply click-treating every time he puts his head down, shifts position, or sighs. That evolved into waiting longer periods before click-treating the behavior. So now, if he starts up the behavior, I can do the relaxation thing by grabbing a handful of treats, asking him to down, and then rewarding him whenever he relaxes.

Another way that's worked great recently is to just stand up, turn away from him, and then stay there until he does something else. I know this is hard to do if your dog is nipping you, so when that happens, you have to remove yourself totally from the room for a couple of minutes. Leaving the room early on helped me get to just being able to ignore him now.

And finally, I will take Radar outside and play a vigorous game of tug - one that tires both of us out. This used to be the quickest way for me to deflect the behavior, but it has two problems. First, it's a reward for bad behavior, and second, I have two very bad shoulders which makes it painful for me to play with him.

[fastdb]

Thanks all, I have put more training and exercise time for Kessel. He is responding well no further
nips and rear guard actions.

[johninny]

good to hear. I had not responded previously because I had no real advice except patience and exercise and gentle but firm communication, as others laid out in more knowledgeable and helpful form. I had been tempted to relate: the sweetest DS I have ever had [ sweet, happy, enthused, etc.] is my middle pup TexXander who is now 6 months old. no sooner had he finished the phase of enthusiastically jumping at my face with his teeth whenever he saw the opportunity, he started biting my legs and my ass AND trying to rip my pants downward and off me [ particularly bad when in bathing suit on beach/in water! ] whenever he is extremely happy - most especially EVERY TIME I return home from the long trip to take out the trash [25 sec.] or, heaven forbid, grocery shopping [25 min.].

that's where we are now - and the newest pup [ not yet 4 months ] is trying to bite my face as I lean over to try to get TeXan from biting my legs. their excitement self-reinforcing and strengthening their determination to show me that each loves me more than the other by the intensity of their biting efforts. it will all pass.

[funkyhunky]

You may love your dogs but your dogs don't love you.
Biting at your face and legs is not a joke. They are testing your limits.
dan

[fastdb]

I am learning about DS/Kessel behavior. I agree that he is testing my resolve. as I experience his attempts
to test me and I stand firm Kessel I feel realises who is in charge. He is a great dog at the dog park with both people and other dogs, he is maturing well. We are learning about each other and it continues to improve.

I am a fan of DS!

[LyonsFamily]

You may love your dogs but your dogs don't love you.
Biting at your face and legs is not a joke. They are testing your limits.
dan

Seriously? Not every type of biting is testing the limits or dominance based. While I don't think this is a behavior to overly encourage, the acting out because of over stimulation that John has mentioned likely has nothing to do with with a lack of love or owner/dog relationships. These aren't his first dogs, or even his first DS.

This is a breed that loves to tug and communicates (like everything else) very intensely. In young dogs especially, when impulse control isn't fully developed and an excited dog gets overstimulated, they express themselves in the ways they know. Odin is floored when I come home. That's the best part of his day and his whole body shows it. I get pretty excited when my husband comes home too. I hope he doesn't think I'm testing my limits when I run up and greet him.

When I come home, Elli and Odin chest bump each other and pull on each other's ears as they dance around by the door. Typically I'm subjected to a little bit of their happy party as well. I allow Elli to jump up and say hello and then usually give them a place command so that we can get settled. That doesn't mean anyone is trying to dominate or "test" anyone else. They know the rules and respect them when they're given, but sometimes you just have to let dogs be dogs. I find safe wrecklessness somewhat enduring.

Knowing ones dogs and reading the other body language present in addition to the nipping is very important. There are certain things I allow with my own dogs that, in other households and contexts, is inappropriate or a sign of some other training issue.

[Stacy_R]

Thank you, Stephanie, for your awesome explanation.
I especially like where you said:

Not every type of biting is testing the limits or dominance based....This is a breed that loves to tug and communicates (like everything else) very intensely. In young dogs especially, when impulse control isn't fully developed and an excited dog gets overstimulated, they express themselves in the ways they know.

Shepherds as a whole are mouthy (after 2 GSD's and now a DS, I can say 3 out of 3 were mouthier than other breeds I have owned) due to their original intended function...how else do they get those rowdy sheep to do what they want them to? So being mouthy is their default.
My personal example is this: for some reason, the stairs get Tyson all riled up...he LOVES running down the stairs. When he was younger and would get overly excited/stimulated, he defaulted to tugging at my pants and if I was in shorts he would nip at my heels. This was not aggression or dominance it was simply due to excitement and not understanding what to do with that energy. Now at 10 months old, Tyson understands that his teeth on my skin (or clothes as an extension of my skin) is no bueno; however, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the occasional slip-up in moments of excitement or overstimulation. Body language and context is key in discerning if there is an issue at hand.

. While I don't think this is a behavior to overly encourage, the acting out because of over stimulation that John has mentioned likely has nothing to do with with a lack of love or owner/dog relationships. These aren't his first dogs, or even his first DS.

I think John is tuned in to his dogs enough to know if a problem is looming and to seek help/advice if necessary.