Aggression question

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Poor Hendrix has not had a very good 2 weeks. He was boarded for the holidays as we had to go see family (no friend could take him, so boarding was our last option) but he was at least with the people who he sometimes does daycare with and who are crazy knowledgable about working breeds. He seemed fine we when picked him up, was reported as having the time of his life, he stayed with the medium sized dogs since they had rough big dogs, and was tired. He lets people come up to him and pet him and love on him, is very very excited about new dogs, and we've been working on his greeting style. So about 2 days after I pick him up, I am diagnosed with a nice mutated form of Dengue Fever (from our family in the tropics). So now I'm so sick I can't move. A few days on meds and I'm moving again., but still feeling icky. At this point Hendrix is starting to be weary of strangers but not other dogs, so I'm treating him every time he's calm when he sees someone new. We're also keeping a bit of distance, about 10 feet, to which he seems comfortable. Progress is being made, we're happy, and then just a few days ago I'm loading him into the car on our street to go for an adventure. Hendrix had spotted a guy walking on the other side of the street and was not too happy about him. No barks, not lunging, just a nice growl. I figure it's one of the teens on our street who he hasn't met yet and get him to load up. I get him into the back, settled, close the door, Hendrix breaks his down-stay and jumps up to the window, and just as I'm about to open my mouth to say something BAM I'm blitzed from behind. Hendrix saw the whole thing. I probably laid on the ground for a good five minutes before I could get up. It was a good whack as my head rebounded into the door. Apparently it was a purse stealer, but I always throw my purse into the car with Hendrix first. Guess the guy didn't want to challenge the barking dog for it.
Poor Hendrix. He has regressed to a Tasmanian devil now when people and dogs approach. Coupled with his 4.5 month "protect mom from evil bags in the wind" streak (and only bags... And penguin blow up Christmas decorations), the little guy is petrified of strangers. My only concern, which is why I'm posting this, is his changed style of aggression. He used to alert, watch, bark, bark, watch, bark, bark, bark, and then lunge, barking, if people weren't sufficiently awed by his puppy power. Now he lunges, teeth bared, then barks, so fast at the mere sight of someone 30 feet away and won't stop. If he's on a flat collar he chokes himself until he gags and his front attached harness he will happily keep going. The only way I can get his attention is dropping to the ground next to him, wave a treat in his face (he does not respond to his OB commands or his name at this stage), and get him to turn away and focus on me. Usually he takes the treat, whirls back around, and keeps going. It's a long process to get him to focus calmly on me. It breaks my heart to see him in such an aggressive panic due to my ignorance of his "something is wrong" signal. In the house he's an angel, recalls from 30 feet fairly consistently, knows at least 10 commands, and only bites his toys now. I'm searching for a quality trainer now (if they ever answer their phones) but does anyone have some suggestions to help me start getting this little guy back on the road to not thinking every stranger is gonna kill mom? Am I on the right road of gaining attention and treating, then presumably as I break through his panic, treating when he looks at strangers from a distance? Any other ideas of how to break through his panic so I can at least try to gain his attention?

[Dutchringgirl]

how strong is his "look"? to me that is key, to keep the eye contact until you release, but even then, he may just go back and growl at someone, so that is also key in handling.

How is he with a stronger collar?

How are you reacting when he reacts, any teeny weeny bit of emotion from you will also feed into him.

How are walks on the street? Can you start again slow with walks and have friends come up to you or just walk by?

Just trying to brainstorm some Ideas. I know with Sadie, I would walk her in town, bring her to the side and let people pass, then closer and closer, but she never got as aggressive as he is. Plus, she is always on a prong when I go out just for power steering since I usually have two together.

Alot of times too when I go to the gas station, they have cookies, Sadie barks but then they give her a cookie and she is their friend.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Lisa - thanks for responding! His "look" is fairly strong at home and out in empty streets. He'll focus on me for a minute without immediate treating Before I could calm him with a "look" until he was calm, then if he growled (exactly as you said after being released) I would correct him with a "stop". He would quiet and that was that. Now I can barely get him to focus on me for a second with the "look" command he's so worried about people. I have a bit better luck if he sees food in my hand (as in I give him the command "look", he turns, focuses, I treat fast in this case to reinforce his looking, he focuses on me again after realizing I have more than one treat, and then he remembers there's people behind him and he turns), but then it's still 1.5 seconds.

I usually sight people ahead so I can be prepared (cross the street if needed, time his "look" command, treats in hand) and very calm. I make sure I use my soothing voice and stay calm.

I'm not 100% sure on what you mean by stronger collar. Something like a pinch collar? He has a no pull harness besides his regular harness and flat collar, which helped his pulling but doesn't even stop his current lunging behavior.

We're back to slow walks on the street. They are okay as long as the streets are empty. If someone comes across us I've usually made sure they're across the street from us and with enough distance they're not an immediate "threat" to him. He still melts down. He's met most of my friends and he merely growls at them when we run the exercises. I'm brain storming people he hasn't met yet.

[Dutchringgirl]

Im thinking of going back to the basics again. If he loves treats, have something super yummy and let him nibble at it to hold his attention for longer. Yes, a prong collar. Im not sure how he would react though, that may help with a better correction but be careful as to not go over board and really upset him.

All I can think of is go back and do the basics, use your friends and stay away from new people. Work on the 'look' and keeping his attention. With new people, go slow again and start far away. Other than working with a trainer on real life happenings, I dont think there is much you can do yourself [ someone else may have some ideas ] but re working on good solid obedience.

[racingiron1]

Wow, sounds like Kira had a rough couple of weeks, too! Glad you're OK. I would agree that you should backtrack and go to the basics. Work with the friends and try to get rid of the growls, then gradually work towards others. Hopefully, he'll start to recognize your attitude toward people and use that as his cue on reaction. For known friends, calm, even happy greeting. For acquaintances (mailman, known neighbors, etc.) still calm or ignoring. Certain situations (suspicious folks, aggressive approach) a bit of skepticism might be OK but still taking cues from you. Keep in mind that if you're feeling tension wondering how he'll react to someone, he may interpret that as cue for aggression, so controlling your emotions is very important. The baby steps are as useful for building your trust of him (thereby easing your feelings) as it is for his learning. If he can pick up on discerning between types of people, maybe he'll someday be able to give cues to YOU on dangerous folks like your recent encounter.

One thing with the leash I'll mention: we had some issues with Hilde lunging (with excitement, not aggression) in certain situations. A friend showed us a technique she uses with a standard poodle that also works really well for us. Normal flat collar and leash, with the clip at the back of the dog's neck, run the leash down one side of the dog, underneath (behind the front legs), then back up the other side. Loop it underneath the leash on the dog's back near the clip for the collar, then just hold it as normal. It's hard to describe, but simple once you see it. It's similar to a choke chain, except when the dog pulls it will apply pressure all around the rib cage. For Hilde, this immediately stops the lunging but doesn't seem to cause traumatic discomfort either. She just magically stops trying to lunge. YMMV. Now, I'm no expert here so I hope someone will chime in if there's something about this technique that could be harmful or dangerous.

[Raven]

A growl is one type of warning. Before a bite. Generally. So, take away the growl and it could leave some dogs to go straight for a bite.

I'm not advocating letting dogs growl and snarl and wildly voice their opinions. I agree that work on foundation and building confidence and focus is a starting point. But a growl may tell you something on occasion you need to know, which unfortunately is often only seen in hindsight. If he indiscriminately growls or shows other signs with anything new (people included), that paints a different picture than sensing something is amiss.

Best wishes with a good trainer to help you both along.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Thanks guys! We went back to basics today and we had better results. I'm expecting a slower road than when we first were learning this but I'd rather take it super slow so he builds confidence. I personally don't mind him growling, but any forward movement towards the source/person he's directing his growling at is a no-no without my okay. He seemed to grasp the concept before we had the incidents, and if a person was approaching (who was friendly) and he was still growling, a "leave it" had him quiet and I would do several "look"s as the person slowly advanced so he could see I was okay with it. He seemed to get the idea as about the 3rd "look" and he would be looking around and when the person came up he couldn't have cared less.

racingiron1 - thanks for your concern! I'm used to the violence, though Dengue Fever is not something I'd recommend ever experiencing. I seem to be the person "bad guys" want to pick on. When I lived in Boston the cops knew me by name I was mugged so many times. Though I liked to say it was because I had this bad habit of not running and punching/kicking the mugger or would be mugger. Thank goodness for self-defense classes. The leash idea sounds a lot like his no-pull harness. I'll have to try it to see if we get the same results since he seems to have hidden his no-pull harness' leash. Little Houdini he is - he also disappeared his tags and his grooming comb, all items not in easy/direct access to him.

[Dutchringgirl]

Since you have a dog and you got mugged, I may venture to guess they waited until you put him in the car to strike, I still things its bold of them though. Is he in the way back of the car or can he sit in the front with you? Mine are always in the front where they can get at the person if that ever happened. I want people to see the dogs so they dont get any stupid ideas.

Glad you had better results today. I would definitely go slower and even if the results come back quick, dont rush him, since now you are dealing with something else added to the mix.

When I did Ring sport, the dogs always always always looked at us. The decoy could be dripping with steaks and the dog didnt break the look. I also did some training at home with Thalie to improvised so no matter what, she knew what to do.

[johninny]

Kira, OMG! nightmarish. ''nice mutated form''. i do not know whether you were being sarcastic or whether you had some not-so-bad mild version. but that is so dangerous; for those who do not know, you hurt from inside your bones [ simultaneous with a flu-type of illness with life-threatening temperature that is beyond imagination ]. the bone hurt can go on for many months. i would advise taking it easy for months because you can get mild relapses [ total body agony ] which in the case of this fever can be disconcerting to say the least.

to fix Hendrix after that trauma is going to require urgency and a lot of happy talk and happy dances - and i would add if were me a simultaneous attempt to convince him that his judgement will not be ignored again [ otherwise, he will be hesitant to yield control ].

do you have a well-trafficked city street or park walk where you can sit on a bench [ ideally with him with you at head level also sitting on bench ] so you and he can observe lots of people coming and going, talk to some passersby, do happy talk with him about it all. at this point, i would ask EVERY acceptable person who stops to look at him to give him a treat for you [ if that can be done safely] - no petting or anything unless Hendrix is ok with that, just bribes popping from the hands of as many people as possible everywhere you go. it is a matter of helping him to figure out that most people are good, that he needs to make individual assessments, that you are the lead in that, but if he insists, you will pause and discuss it with him.

i know this sounds a bit nuts, but if you find more traditional and professional means not rescuing him sufficiently from this trauma / not getting through to him, then perhaps you can try adding a bit of my way of thought occasionally.

take it easy yourself. good luck with him. Hendrix is so handsome and was doing so well with Santa.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Lisa - Yes he usually rides in the front with me. I'll occasionally move him to the back for kennel riding purposes if we're going on highways (TX drivers are terrifying). We have a borrowed car from the dealer while mine is getting replacement parts promised to me a few months ago, so the back had less stickers and paper ads for him to rip. Apparently, just learned tonight, I'm not the first person this guy has done this to. Never taken anything either. Police are wondering if it's teens doing that knockout game, although I can't attest if it was a punch or body slam that sent my head into the car.

Johnny - yup, It was probably on the more mild side of Dengue as far as it goes, whatever the mutated form was, and lab work came back to support an infection. To define it they wanted to do a spinal tap and that's where I said "good luck Chuck" and went home. The joint and muscle pain made the flu seem like a baby muscle ache; I was pretty sure someone was operating on me at night that's how much it hurt. Wouldn't ever wish that on anyone. Well, maybe the guy who slammed me into my car. Kidding!! I didn't know you could relapse! That's something they neglected to mention.

No, that's a great idea! I'll add it in! I constantly jabber to him anyways, especially when he's growling. I'll have to just up it more when we're out and describe everything. I like talking to him and I know he understands tone of voice, if not certain words. I'll try the bench idea when he's a bit less frantic around people. It's a great idea! Maybe I'll have a basket full of treats at the end of bench people can take from? Leaning forward to give them the treat may take some practice with him. I'll have to think of some delivery method since my throwing aim is horrendous (Hendrix can attest as many times as I've accidentally thrown a ball into him).

Thank you all for your help! Hopefully with a trainer, starting back at square one, and lots of time and talking and good vibes Hendrix will be back to his bouncy "aren't I cute?" way with strangers!!!

[Ramy]

Hi Kira

We are neighbors, I live in Sulphur Springs a couple of hours east of Dallas. I second the idea of assuring him you will pay attention to his communication. I would take note any time he communicates anything. Hungry, thirsty, wants out etc. But especially when he goes on alert. Look in the direction he is looking. Assure him you see it, and if there's any possibility of a threat take some action to get away from it. If not tell him you see it and it is ok. But make sure it really is. He needs to know you will listen to him and will take him seriously.Then you have to prove he should trust your judgement. It will take time. Of course setting up situations in known safe places will help.
Ramy
and Ruger (5 months and about to lose the puppy canines )

[Stacy_R]

I don't know how I missed this post... OH ~ MY ~ GOSH!!!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I thought I should post an update on Hendrix. He's doing a lot better and we've come to an understanding - he barks and stares at something until I I acknowledge what it is. "Oh it's a man. Oh it's a rabbit. Oh... What the heck are you staring at up in the corner? On the ceiling? Okay stop that's just creepy. No really. Quit it. If I see anything from the Grudge you are on your own buddy." Half the time this works the other half I can't figure out what he's staring at. Which usually means it's in the shadows or in the corner of our ceiling so I refuse to investigate on principle of I've seen too many horror movies.

He can now walk through most shops with men present if I maintain his attention. Women bearing food and sometimes not are free to approach and children are hit and miss, which is fine. He has never once growled at a child, but will move away if the kid worries him. Men are still in the "oh he made eye contact with me - KUJO MODE" catagory. It's been hard keeping guys away from him in stores. I can't tell you how many "oh dogs love me" I get as I try to stop them from making eye contact, bending over Hendrix, and grinning. 10% listen as I back us away to his below threshold level and 90% get Kujo Mode. Some men are okay for quick eye contact and others are a no go. If his attention is on me men can walk by without worry.

We've tried about every form of conditioning with all sorts of people. I have used a lot of your guys' suggestions which has helped a lot in different ways. He has shown leaps and bounds of improvement. He still cannot seem to get over eye contact, though he's perfectly willing to take food from strange men's hands.

But tonight we had a very bizarre change of events. So far Hendrix has only met the training director (wearing a bite suit) who he warmed up to very fast because he holds the precious bite rag. He does fine with him now. But we had another member showing us some OB tonight and I had warned him about Hendrix's little problem and advised perhaps he wanted to put on a bite suit. I'm assured no, it's fine. Well, here comes Hendrix and BAM, jumps onto the guy, tail wagging, grinning, happy as can be. Zero aggression. I'm thinking it's a one off thing, but here comes another member. Before I can warn him he's petting Hendrix, who jumps up on him for more pets. Again, zero aggression. Now I'm awe struck. I swear they had all greased themselves with hotdogs or something. I'm hoping this is a sign he's going to make a break through soon. The funny thing is I was probably more stressed than when we're out in public because, you know, being the one with the puppy who likes to eat the guy members in the club isn't what I would like to be known for off the bat.

And Ramy and Ruger - hello neighbors! Sounds like Ruger and Hendrix are about the same age! I think Hendrix just lost all his baby teeth finally. We're waiting for the rest to show up now.

[LyonsFamily]

How old is Hendrix now? 5-6 months? You're entering into a fear period aka his awkward/pubescent time. Usually it starts around 7 months, but this, paired with the men in uniforms you also posted about, sounds like he's just getting into the stage a little early and he's figuring things out. Keep up on obedience and exposure without forcing him into situations. Next week he might love all men, but decide that all mailboxes are secretly serial killers in disguise. Been there, those are fun walks around the neighborhood. It might just be a phase you have to grin and bear.

Continue to have him with the trainers and people you know, but for new people, don't approach for petting or treats, but have them drop treats when they walk by. Introduce him to new challenging environments that might not include people to help him learn confidence and control. I like laying out a sort of obstacle course of different surfaces to walk on, a tarp, plywood, individual boards, mulch, etc. It helps them learn to adapt to new things at their own pace without being pressed into a situation where they might go over threshold.

The Kujo mode isn't helping him, so stay away from those stores if you can't avoid the people or get some sort of vest that says do not pet and stand your ground about what people you want him interacting with. If you need to make up something to get your point across, tell them you want him to be a therapy or SAR dog and he needs to learn to not approach people when he's working and focus on you. It took me a while with Odin to remember that it's not everyone's right to pet your dog and we're not required as dog owners to let anyone approach. I'd never let a stranger push the buttons on my cell phone or go through my purse, and the same should apply to my dogs.

[Stacy_R]

it's not everyone's right to pet your dog and we're not required as dog owners to let anyone approach. I'd never let a stranger push the buttons on my cell phone or go through my purse, and the same should apply to my dogs.

Hear! Hear!
(This and "oh, but my dog is friendly and just wants to play!" as the retractable leash keeps getting longer are by far 2 of my biggest pet peeves.)

And some people just don't get the hint, so you may have to be rude. The greenway is that way for me. And I hate the "dogs love me" Sometimes I have just said, that's nice, but please back off.

Tyson struggles with the eye-contact thing as well. Just stand your ground with him and especially with other people. It is okay to protect your dog.

[Dutchringgirl]

If you are stressed and warning people, you are not knowingly setting up the stage for aggression. The not knowing and allowing, especially dog trainers, to come in and just be themselves is the way to avoid alot, then Hedrix can learn a bit more that its okay.

Now, onto the spooky stuff, I have a friend who is an animal communicator and dogs can see things. Sadie will look at who knows what , usually the ceiling, with a look like she is listening or really watching. Thalie is an old soul so she dosnt bother. Not all things the dog sees are bad spooky so dont worry, unless your refrigerator starts sliding across the floor.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Yup Hendrix is 5 months now and has today decided tiny leaves are Satan himself. Which is hilarious to watch since he's, you know, about 100x the size of the leaf. Luckily he seems to get over his fear as quickly as it shows up. Either that or I upped my daily wine amount.

Yup I've been doing slow walks with him in the morning, not for exercise but mainly exposure/exploration. Every day is a new place. That's a great idea about the obstacle course! I'll have to make a trip to Home Depot.

I don't get stressed out when we're out in a place and people approach us - the exception being that one PSA practice - and I think of it like a game. It's more when he does react I stress than the before, and if he does react we leave. If I do start to get stressed with let's say a sudden swarm of 15 people, I pull us out of there. Half the battle is remaining calm myself! I do not let him approach people, without first preparing the person with treats if they're willing, or getting his focus, and when most people who try to approach us I'll gain his attention and back away as part of a game with him. A quick comment about his reactivity has most understanding and a challenge to others. Mainly I try to keep his leash loose but with a shot amount of slack so I can intervene if necessary. As we learn where the "doggie whisperer wannabe"s are we avoid those places. I have literally had people walk up to me after reading his "I'm in training GIVE ME SPACE" vest and try to pet him. *facepalm* You're right Stephanie I think something more official looking is needed.

Exactly! A dog is not required to be Outgoing Loving Friendly Fido. Around here it's mainly purse dogs and smallish dogs, who generally love everyone (or I should say, forced to love everyone), so everyone has this expectation your dog should love being loved on. And if your dog doesn't, well then you're a bad owner because your dog doesn't want to be petted by everyone. It's not the public's right to touch someone else's dog. I'm about ready to start carrying a fly swatter or something so if they try after I tell them not to I can swat them. I will have to be faster though.

Lisa - I totally believe that. Hendrix has freaked me out a few times by alerting and watching something move across rooms, yards, and even in the car (something behind me move behind him, on the bench seat) and I'm hoping it's my guardian angel. I can't see anything that would cause his attention unless it's too small for me to see or I just can't SEE it. However I do request he let me know if there's any kind of freaky bad ghost business because I've seen how those end in the movies. I wonder if I could train him to be a ghost hunter dog….

He still would not be making half the progress he is without all of your help, advice, and support! Thank you guys!

[Dutchringgirl]

I just outright tell people NO. usually Sadie does that for me though. If someone is passing with a dog Ill move out of the way firs and put them is a sit. If I have just Thalie, its all fine but when I have Sadie too, its all business and NO you cannot let your dog sniff mine.
Socialization is so over rated.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Agreed. I've always told people that I just want him to know not all humans are bad and other dogs are not aliens. He doesn't need to love everyone and everything.

Today at least he had a mini breakthrough. We stopped into a local shop and the guys there know about his reactivity. But Hendrix walked right up to them and investigated them (with their permission) which was a first and even made eye contact with one male customer then looked to me for a treat. Even when the store got a wave of people as we were leaving, he never once reacted to the guys making eye contact or the little girl that ran past. All he did was lean forward to sniff them. I'm starting to see him become curious about guys, which is a total change from his "ah the person looked at me from across the room!" reactions.

[Dutchringgirl]

That is so fantastic Kira !!!!!