Serious problem

[steph90]

My DS mix, Cody, is about 7 months old now. He is well behaved. I let him off leash often, and he stays close to me and usually responds to 'come'. Sometimes it takes a while, and I've been working very hard to perfect this behavior. A big problem that Cody has, that I've never had to deal with before, is if I show any sign of being upset or angry with him.. he will literally not let me touch him. It's very strange. He sometimes does this even when I show no sign of anger and just call him in a happy voice, he knows hes been bad and doesn't let me touch him. For example, if he runs off and I have to get him, he might come up to me and dart away just as im about to take his collar. even if I lay on the ground calling him, which would normally send him into a playing frenzie, he stays just out of reach and runs away almost playfully.. I literally have to grab him. Which probably doesn't help him being scared, but sometimes its nesassary. I have even stopped telling him bad dog when he runs off just because I don't want to reinforce this behavior. Im afraid if I stop telling him 'bad' for long enough, he might just run off when he wants. It is not because he doesn't want to be leashed, or leave where he is. If I just walk away he will follow and stay close to me, but when I try to touch him he runs. Usually I will just walk to my car, get in and he follows and eventually lets me leash him (good boy). I need to figure out how to stop this though, in case of an emergency situation (Another dog approaching etc.) I have been trying to work with him only in my yard but he always listens perfectly there. It is also hard to keep him leashed all the time, because he gets most of his exercise offleash. Im doing what I can but nothing is changing.

[Christie M]

I have found that smart dogs learn that "come" means the fun is ending. I tend to keep all of my dogs on a leash of some sort until they are completely reliable - which is much later than 7 months. I agree that they do need good exercise, so I just let them drag a really long leash (30ft) or rope. That way, they never learn that there is an option, but they can still run around like a maniac. Also, I like them to learn that coming to me is a good thing and all the fun doesn't stop - it only gets better. So I practice recalls often, and just reward and let them go back to playing. For every time that I call them to put them up, I have called them about 10 additional times. Those other 10 times just result in a reward (food treat if they are food motivated) and then let them go back to playing. For your dog, I would also instill that coming means that you get to touch his collar before his reward and return to play. You have to be more interesting that the alternatives, and he needs to stop having the option to blow you off.

Good luck!

[Christie M]

PS - Steph,
If you can, could you please post a little about yourself in the New Member Announcements area? We would love to learn more about you and your brindle kid. If you could also visit your User Control Panel, then you can create a signature with your name. Then you won't have to sign all of your posts and we will always know who you are!!!
Welcome to the forum!

[Dutchringgirl]

Christie pretty much summed it up. Coming to you has to be better than what he is doing at the moment. All of my recalls, for what ever reason have yummy or fun rewards. When I was training Thalie early on, I always, always had her on a very long rope, I would let her go and play or do what ever, while always attached, then called her to come to me, then tug play, she is super toy motivated. But i would do that a gazillion times every day, I used an e collar when she would go loose, but only used the vibrate, she is super sensitive. She is now 9 and old hat at it all. Dont show any anger anyway when they come to you after taking off, they will associate the anger with coming back to you, not taking off.

[steph90]

He is normally happy to come to me. He seems to enjoy the car ride more than the actual destination and has no problem hopping in with me. Its specifically when I scold him. Also, I never scold him when he approaches me. He knows he is being good by coming. But if i raise my voice as hes running off, even just trying to get his attention yelling "Cody, come" he notices and hangs around, sometimes even comes, but just doesn't let me touch him. And it is not only outside that he gets like this, it is even in his home. Earlier I walked in my room to find him on the bed and I said "bad dog, down!" He jumped down and immediately sat, and i went to pat him on the head and he darted to the side. Being outside off leash is just when the behavior is a real problem. I did adopt him, and im beginning to suspect that he may have been abused or at least come from someone that didn't treat him right. He has other weird little issues here and there; he would not eat if anyone was near his food dish ( wouldn't even approach the food.. this behavior is almost completely extinct now) and he was nervous around larger people in particular ( also gone.). He has come a long way but this is behavior has got to go. I've tried using treats and toys but they are pretty ineffective in this situation. I just don't understand it, Cody trusts me and we have a strong bond even in the four months Iv'e had him. A friend of mine believes I should start treating this as an abuse case, in which the dog is very sensitive to my emotions. From what Iv'e read on the internet, things like that can take a long time to be corrected. Thanks for the feedback everyone

[Dutchringgirl]

That does sound like, to me, what happened to him, I have found DS's to be very sensitive, Ive had Thalie since she was 1, she is 9 now, but she never likes loud yelling, she leaves the room when the kids go at it, if she is outside she will start to leave. Its good though that the other issues have gone

[turnnburn52984]

I'm with the previous posters... it sounds like he's just NOT ready for any off leash time yet. If you let the behavior become unreliable now (which it sounds like it already is) it's a TERRIBLE habit it break. When he's getting his 'off leash' exercise, can you leave a long-line on him? Something so you can step on it, in a uh-oh moment?

Another thing I wanted to mention- I learned the hard way (with a previous dog) never ever, EVER, call the dog to you when they've been bad, or you're upset/angry with them. They know, and it will make the pup/dog behave exactly like what you're describing. Ask him for a down, or a sit, or some other behavior, but do not ask him to come to you. It'll just make a flawless recall that much better in the long run.

Since you've been using the word 'come' and it's somewhat tainted at this point (it does not alway mean drop what you're doing and run as fast as you can to mom) you might consider changing commands. 'Here' is a popular option, or 'By me!'. I use 'By me' when Koenig is off leash, but wandering farther then I'm comfortable with (10' or so on walks) He'll promptly drop back to a casual heel position. 'Here' I use in ScH, and it's my recall. NO EXCEPTIONS. I use come around the house, when I don't need him to run full bore at me, and finish in front.

Just some thoughts. Emphasis on the long line, or retractable leash.

[steph90]

I guess Im going to be making a couple changes in cody's routines. I have never had such a sensitive dog before so all this is very new to me. Ill use positive reinforcement as much as possible, and be very gentle with letting him know he is being bad (like when hes on the bed- not off leash). Its going to be very difficult keeping him on leashes, even long ones. I wish he was old enough to jog with me or run next to my bicycle to burn off some off his seemingly never-ending energy, then I wouldn't have to depend on off leash time the way I have been. I see lots of loongg walks ahead of us. Walks, patience, and time.

[Kristie E]

Gwen was/is very sensitive. She used to do the same thing almost. She would not come to me if she thought she was in trouble and play dodge em when I would try to touch her head or grab her collar... I started making everything a game for her. To a "get off the bed" command where I put her "up" and tell her to "get off" multiple times. I also did "gotcha" at random times during the day I would take her collar and say "gotcha" and then give her a treat. It used to be absolutely horrible trying to get a collar on Ms. Houdini should she slip it off. Now most everything is a huge game for her and she is much less skittish. I also e collar trained her for recall so I could let her off leash. She comes running hell bent for leather now with a big old goofy grin on her face. One of her most favorite games.

[vneerland]

Christie and the others gave you great advice. Sometimes we as owners need to learn not to make excuses, but take inventory of that needs to be changed. If your pup even ignores you in the house (under cerain circumstances) there is no way that he can be totally off lead outside until that is fixed. Load your pockets full of treats, and reward lavishly every time he comes, which should be many many many times a day. Once the inside behavior is fixed, you can start contemplating letting him 'off' outside. but at fist still dragging a leash. Repeat the training until the outside recall is reliable. Even with the best behaved dogs, recall is mostly dependent on the stimuli around them. Never let a dog loose that cannot handle a recall under 'normal' circumstances unless you want to loose him/her one day when you encountered a perfect storm. (upon wich moment you will never catch them again) Trust me. I know first hand how that can turn disastrous, from a dog that always always came back to me, never an issue, but not to her brand new owner.

[Raven]

The hardest and most important command: come. My preference, and it's done well for me, is to use words that pack a punch ("come" doesn't do it for me). With my present adopt, he had no recall. Now, even with barking dogs or dogs in sight, he 'comes' to "platform"--bam--heels at my side.

When I got him and realized how wild he was, I took large squares of white fabric and scattered them on the ground (large enough where he had a good chance of hitting one even inadvertantly. I'd say 'platform' and point to a square; even if his toe touched one, BAM, treat. If he missed or simply didn't do it, he got no reaction; I'd just start over or do a little focus with him. Quickly, I was able to reduce the size and number of squares as soon as he got it, then just as quickly eliminated them.

This is not only how he 'comes' (even from the backyard when squirrels are playing in the woods and dogs are barking down the road), but if I need/want him to be some particular place: I point and say "platform." It's got a punch. (He will even jump like a kangaroo--backwards--if he's missed the mark...damnest thing and funny to see.) It worked for my beast.

And triple-agreement to everyone's suggestion to maintain your tone and emotion as well as the long lead and not allowing the dog off it in open spaces until the trust is there on both ends.

[Raven]

Meant to add, if you are not competing, liberty can be taken with commands.

[turnnburn52984]

Kristie touched on it.. I forgot to mention it

Marker train the collar grab! Make it a game. Teach him to present his neck/collar to you. Leerburg has some great threads on that I think. http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/collargrab.flv (Video I found, I know there is stuff the the forum as well)

[Sugars Mom]

Hi,
My pup has some similar traits; like sometimes doesn't want to be touched or petted, and will dart out of the way. Kinda wierd.

Other thing about the not coming EVERY time, some really good advice given. I'll try some of it out.

One thing I wondered about...when I started training Sugar, I didn't use treats right away, started at maybe 4 months, and I thought "great, how easy is this!". But then quickly realized that she stopped giving me eye contact and would only focus on my hand with the treat. I don't use treats anymore, and she doesn't really respond to praise or petting/rubbing. How do I reward her? I've been using toys or playing with her, as a reward, but its not always easy to do that, depends on where we are or what we are doing. I still have to remind her to look at me in the eyes and she is 8 months old now. Any ideas on getting great eye contact and keeping the focus on me?

Thanks!

[Christie M]

Hi,
My pup has some similar traits; like sometimes doesn't want to be touched or petted, and will dart out of the way. Kinda wierd.

Other thing about the not coming EVERY time, some really good advice given. I'll try some of it out.

One thing I wondered about...when I started training Sugar, I didn't use treats right away, started at maybe 4 months, and I thought "great, how easy is this!". But then quickly realized that she stopped giving me eye contact and would only focus on my hand with the treat. I don't use treats anymore, and she doesn't really respond to praise or petting/rubbing. How do I reward her? I've been using toys or playing with her, as a reward, but its not always easy to do that, depends on where we are or what we are doing. I still have to remind her to look at me in the eyes and she is 8 months old now. Any ideas on getting great eye contact and keeping the focus on me?

Thanks!

You can teach formal eye contact with food. That is the first behavior that I teach any dog - client or my own. I like the Chris Bach method the best. You take a reward, show it to your dog (I typically step on the leash to prevent actually jumping at the treat) and then hold the reward far away from your body to either side. Your dog will naturally stare at your hand. Eventually, the dog will shift focus for a mili-second to your face. I mark that moment with a "Yes" or click and reward. So in reality, you are teaching two things - the facial focus and the conditioned reinforcer (yes or click).

In essence, through repetition, you are teaching the dog to look away from the desired reward and look to you before being released to obtain it.

Ivan Balabanov has a similar method presented in his "Training Without Conflict" series, but he uses a toy. I like to start all of my dogs off with food rewards and then take those taught skills and reinforce them with play games.

I don't think its something that you could visualize without seeing it and I'm trying to find a good YouTube video to demonstrate it. The ones I'm seeing suck Heather? Leih? Do you guys have any good resources?

[Sugars Mom]

Thanks Christine. I have been doing that to get her eye contact and its been working. I looked up this method on youtube to see it, as you are right, seeing is great. I'll keep on it. Thanks again!!

[leih merigian]

Sorry, Christie, no visual resources on this one, but sounds like she's got the idea (nice description, BTW).

Sue...you may also want to teach a couple of eye contact cues...I use "ready?" to indicate some other cue/command is coming (and there's always the fun game of Ready? 1...2...3...get it! or whatever); I also use "eyes," which helps when I want to define some command with eye contact...such as leave it. For us, leave it includes instantly turning from whatever it is, coming to me, AND giving me instant eye contact. When first training it, I'd use both "leave it" and then "eyes" to make sure she knew that was part of the definition of the cue, leave it. Of course, it doesn't matter what you call it (lots of people use "watch," but anything you like will do), as long as you can ask for eye contact and get it, besides just wanting it in general engagement.

[Sugars Mom]

Thats a great idea to add it to the "leave it" command. I've using "look" for asking for eye contact.

A question about the "leave it". She will respond to "leave it" really well, but there needs to be something more for teaching her to leave certain things alone, all the time. For example, she likes socks, and will sometimes pull one out of the laundry. I've tried to "claim" the laundry to teach her that its not for her to go into, but she will still go into it at times. She will leave the sock when I ask her to, but what ideas do you have about teaching her to leave things alone all the time? I also know that she will do it when she is bored perhaps, and I try to keep her busy or active enough, and its not really that its a huge problem (taking the socks doesn't happen a lot) but I think its important that she only take things given to her.

(BTW, because I'm, new to forums; is there some sort of forum ediquitte on posting questions like this on someone else's post? If so, sorry!)

Thanks for the time, Sue

[Kristie E]

There are a lot of attention games you can use. I like the one Christie told you about. I also used something similar to get name attention. You have to wait til your dog looks at you and you mark the behavior (either yes or clicker) and then treat. It is mostly a waiting game. I kept stashes of treats around the house and then as the behavior increased I started adding her name. This is how I taught Gwen to put her head down on the floor. She used to wait for me while I was cooking and so I would watch her out of the corner of my eye. Every time she put her head down between her paws I threw a treat at her. I might have caught it once or twice a day at first and then she figured it out. As it became more frequent I marked it with a yes or click and after several weeks of that then I marked it with the command "head down." It is funny because she does it so fast... you can teach your dog all sorts of things. We are working on "bounce" once I get that I ll post a video of it.

[leih merigian]

Thats a great idea to add it to the "leave it" command. I've using "look" for asking for eye contact.

A question about the "leave it". She will respond to "leave it" really well, but there needs to be something more for teaching her to leave certain things alone, all the time. For example, she likes socks, and will sometimes pull one out of the laundry. I've tried to "claim" the laundry to teach her that its not for her to go into, but she will still go into it at times. She will leave the sock when I ask her to, but what ideas do you have about teaching her to leave things alone all the time? I also know that she will do it when she is bored perhaps, and I try to keep her busy or active enough, and its not really that its a huge problem (taking the socks doesn't happen a lot) but I think its important that she only take things given to her.

(BTW, because I'm, new to forums; is there some sort of forum ediquitte on posting questions like this on someone else's post? If so, sorry!)

Thanks for the time, Sue

Sue, I don't remember how old your puppy is, but this is how I look at this whole thing.

Prevention is such a big part of it...preventing unwanted behavior in the first place. Leaving the laundry alone is a lot like leaving the trash bins alone. They have to learn that those things are always off limits. But, it just takes a lot of time and repetition, and when you know there is something they're likely to go after, you have to be there to prevent them from doing it...All The Time. This is where direct supervision is so critical. If you don't have the time or patience or whatever to be directly supervising your puppy, it should not be free enough to be able to engage in those verbotten behaviors .

And, I don't know how you're defining "leave it" for your pup, but for us, it means "don't touch it, and look to me instead." So, if my girl is headed towards something like laundry or trash, I tell her to "leave it" before she gets into it. Then I can reinforce her correct behavior. If the pup already has something, then I have different cues...like "out" or "give it to me," something like that.

We also have a cue, "check it out." This means you can smell it, look at it, but you can not touch it. Period. I can show her anything that way...anything she shows interest in, but at the same time, make sure she doesn't mess with whatever it is. So, for example, I'm carrying up clean laundry in the basket, she's interested. "Check it out," and put it down so she can do so...then reward her for not messing with anything. This falls into the category of not just telling the dog what not to do, but rather, giving them something positive/incompatible-with-wrong-behavior that they can do.

"Check it out" comes in very handy in a lot of situations, too.

But, back to your original question, eventually, over time, with a lot of repetitions of being prevented from getting into stuff they're not supposed to get into, and maturity, they come to be responsible about not messing with things. With a puppy, it's not enough that they know they're not supposed to get into something; they have to develop the maturity to be responsible, then reliable about not doing it. That takes time and a lot of supervision. No way around that, I'm afraid. And, there are some dogs who never develop this level of reliability. If I had one of those, it would never have total freedom in the house without supervision. I do believe, tho, that with enough hard work invested, most of us can get our dogs to that desired state.

The young dog/pup gets as much freedom as it demonstrates it can handle. If you give it more than it's ready for, then just remember that what you allow, you train .