Introducing 2 dominant dogs

[Tappy4me]

Hey all! Been awhile since I posted last. Rufus, our mastiff mix, is doing really well.
Long story short, we are getting ready to move to my folks place, as we have a baby coming and are working on building a new house. My folks have a Dutch Shepherd/Malinois Cross male, a Malinois Female (13 years old) and a jack russell/Irish setter mix (about 4 years old and the size of a jack russell). I'm not too worried about the intros between the latter two, as in the past we've had no issues with Rufus and them being together at my folks house. The newbie they have though, Rosco the Dutch mix-about 2 years old, neutered-and Rufus are both very dominant. The last couple interactions they had didn't go very well. The first was after my parents 16 year old Malinois, Rusty, passed away. They got Rosco shortly after. Rufus was very good friends with Rusty, and I think he mistook Rosco for Rusty (Rosco has malinois coloring) and very quickly went from wanting to play to being very unsure. The 2nd time we were over there after this, Rosco was the instigator and tried to pick a fight with Rufus. Rufus wanted to play, Rosco did not. The 3rd time, my parents watched Rufus for us while we went out of town, but boarded off a section of the house to keep the two separate. They could sniff under the board, but couldn't get to each other, and they rotated who went outside. We haven't been back over with Rufus since, as he gets carsick and we didn't think it was worth the stress of an hour and a half trip or getting sick and then having to constantly watch the two of them while my little nieces were over there.

My parents are in the process of fencing in their yard. Currently they have invisible fencing, but they are also putting up a regular 4 ft fence too, as shortly after they got Rosco he went after a neighborhood dog (that was on a leash walking) and injured him. Since then, he has mellowed out alot with other dogs that he's not familiar with, so we have no idea how Rufus and his next interactions will go. They are also building a big run that we can keep the two rotated in, so the oddball isn't having to be kept in the house all day long.

Just trying to get some input. What would be the best way to go about introducing these guys? They will be having to live together for 3+ months 'til our house is built.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

No introductions on land/space that the two are familiar with. Neutral ground. Do OB with them both, separately, where they cannot see each other. I usually do a walk by with at least 10 feet of space between them to judge first reaction. I don't allow prolonged staring or hackles or any threat gestures. The offender gets corrected and more OB. If I see unsureness another pass, and then another closer, and another, and if they seem relaxed and neutral both parties circle in for a quick greet and move off. Rinse and repeat. Any serious threat gesture (lunging) gets corrected and move off. Both dogs must be calm before meeting and if one gets nervous on approach just widen the path or circle around. Never approach head on. This is just the approach that works for my guy, and I'm sure others have better advice. Some don't let them officially meet until after walking with each other for a while, other do a walk after.

Reason why I do obedience is I want the dogs the listen to me and not be carried off by whatever thought crosses their brain. I want them in the mindset of listening. I also want them to realize I'm in "control" of the situation - if they don't like each other after first sniff that's fine, but in the house they must realize that they cannot act like jerks and must listen to me. My friend lives with two dominant mals and while they don't like each other they exist with each other with a lot of management and training. While everyone is living there I would do multiple daily OB sessions involving the both of them.

[Tappy4me]

That's along the lines of what I was thinking of doing. My parents have a 1 1/2 mile road through their subdivision, so plenty of neutral territory to walk them. Thanks!

I want to avoid a dog fight at all costs, and am praying that they will decide the other is cool to be around. Rufus needs a bigger dog to play with, and it'd be nice for him and Rosco to mingle. But I'll be happy if they'll simply tolerate each other.

[Raven]

Kira's dead-on about launching into OB when distractions have grabbed a dog's attention (though it won't work if they're over-threshold. That's a point where you remove the dog.).

I'm not speaking from a dog-on-dog introduction, so consider that, but I'll purposely work around known triggers (at a distance that doesn't cause threshold to be reached) doing OB, slowly closing distance after success at X range-----so what about just casually doing OB during introductions? (Anyone step in here with thoughts; I may be off-base about this with intros.)

When you say a four-foot fence--that's not high, especially for DSs who can scale a 10-foot wall.

And I have to add what a thrill it is to see Rufus again. I just love him!

(I need to see a pic of the JRTxIrish setter. Oy!)

EDIT: Just fully read Kira's post, so OB during intro's and in-house is not off-base. Just look for signs to prevent either reaching the point of crossing threshold..............while the humans involved monitor themselves to prevent the dogs picking up on stress.)

[Tappy4me]

Rufus' obedience is pretty good. It's not him I worry about. It's my parents dog. I don't know how much they've worked with him haha...

No, it's not high. Just average fencing. But for whatever reason, in the last 6 months he has decided he likes to go exploring. If we tie him for a few days when out, for about a week following that he won't leave the yard. He can jump it like a deer-it's ridiculous! But, he plays stupid when you call him back and he won't hop it to get back in the yard.... We're hoping combined with the invisible fencing, he won't continue to jump fencing at my parents. If that works well, it's what we'll be doing at our new house. We have 3 acres to fence in...so can't do fencing taller than the normal 4 foot due to cost lol. (Pretty sure Rufus could scale a 10 foot wall in a heart beat!) We're just trying to see if there's anything we can do to make him not want to jump the fence! everything we've been reading makes it seem like it's a self rewarding behavior...so very hard to break lol. But I can't find any info on how to break him of it.

We love him too! He's a hard headed son of a gun when he wants to be, but we love him to death. Can't wait to see how he'll be with our little one. He just loves kids!

Here's a pic of Zoey, the Irish Setter/JRT cross. Known parents...hard to believe lol. Setter was the dam.
Now, these are old...I don't have any current ones of her. Just add a few pounds lol. She's a porker...

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

There's some cases, and I fully warn this is where knowing your dog and what he'll do is the best advice I can give, where I have to have the other person hold their dog in a stand so H can sniff their butt first. But that's where knowing my dog and the other person knowing their dog really helps. Also, don't fret too much if the first meeting isn't super awesome best friends. See if you can find youtube videos of how dogs usually greet each other (especially ones featuring any sort of rehab work with shy/aggressive dogs) to get familiar with what may happen. When H meets other dominant dogs there's small scuffles here and there after the first encounter, which honestly seems like the cold shoulder, and I let them sort it out unless I see something I don't like, like uncalled for aggression or them acting like donkey butts for the heck of it. As long as all understand that I am momma and my word is law, as long as they live peaceably with each other I'm fine with whatever they decide. I would advise either e-collars and/or leashes on them in the house and one person always on watch while they settle into life. I believe somewhere on here Stacy posted a really good article about introducing a new dog into the home which would be worth the read too.

As for the fence jumping, he's testing the boundaries with your parents, one by exploring what's on the other side of the physical boundary, and two by not coming when called. While the former could be just because he doesn't fully understand that the invisible fence is indeed a boundary and in typical high drive behavior just blows through it, I also would prepare for him jumping the actual visual boundary of the 4 ft fence. I wouldn't let him get away with not coming when called in any case, and would up obedience and working for his meal times. Nothing in life is free approach. It'll not only help with the fence but also with general OB and the upcoming introductions. If the visual of the fence doesn't stop him, and knowing you probably couldn't build a fence tall enough to keep these guys in, I would also say either always attached to a long line in the yard or train him for ecollar off leash obedience. You could play the second option two ways, one, once he gets the idea of it and is fine with it, make jumping the fence unpleasant but coming back when called very very very beneficial (so basically he sees the boundary as what it is, a boundary), or let him leap but he must return when called (so it becomes an OB thing). If he's slightly DA or property defensive the fence hopping is a danger to anyone passing by. Also, keep in mind this is info I've discussed with other trainers who have had similar problems, and besides the long line, haven't employed the ecollar technique but have had others tell me it's successful.

The reason why the tying up in the yard works is because he's become used to the boundary of the tie up/out... when he realizes that's gone and there's nothing stopping him from going through the invisible fence besides, you know, that just slightly bothersome shock, it's time to play! Hopefully the visual of the fence will stop him. If not then it's just training him that that is a boundary not to be crossed.

PS I also love seeing Rufus! And Zoey is freaking adorable!!!!

[Tappy4me]

Rufus has a very good recall. We've instilled that in him since a pup since we knew he had the possibility of getting very big. He always comes when called, just sometimes takes longer than others depending how far away he roamed.

The fence jumping is at our house, not my folks. (He hasn't been over there in a good 10 months) he responds very well to an ecollar, and has done well in invisible fencing before as well. (My sister has invisible fencing at her house. Rufus and their dog are good buddies)

I'd love to make the jumping of the fence unpleasant, but he never jumps it when we are watching! We have an acre fenced in, and not enough windows in the house to be able to watch him through to catch him jumping. He's sneaky!

Thankfully he's not aggressive, or wed be keeping him tied when out. We have alot of people that walk our road, but our biggest concern is he has no car smarts. He doesn't seem to have any particular time that he jumps it. Seems to just be when he feels like going exploring.

What would be a good way to make him work for his meals? He eats almost 8 cups a day, split between 2 meals lol

[Stacy_R]

I ditto everything Kira said about doing OB. In fact, I would suggest that you do some OB sessions with Rufus and Roscoe together on neutral territory without actually letting them meet BEFORE you actually move in there. Meet somewhere, do some OB together for 45 minutes to an hour and then leave. This way they can understand that they can exist in some fashion with each other and they don't have to interact with each other. Also, if you don't use "place" with either dog, start them both ASAP.

And that Zoey is a cutie pie! I think she forgot that she's 1/2 Irish Setter, though...LOL

[Tappy4me]

I ditto everything Kira said about doing OB. In fact, I would suggest that you do some OB sessions with Rufus and Roscoe together on neutral territory without actually letting them meet BEFORE you actually move in there. Meet somewhere, do some OB together for 45 minutes to an hour and then leave. This way they can understand that they can exist in some fashion with each other and they don't have to interact with each other. Also, if you don't use "place" with either dog, start them both ASAP.

And that Zoey is a cutie pie! I think she forgot that she's 1/2 Irish Setter, though...LOL

That is a great idea! Unfortunately I don't know if we can work that out, with us being an hour and a half from my folks, on top of me being 33 weeks pregnant. Makes things much more difficult. By "place", what do you mean?

Also, both Rufus and Roscoe are crate trained.
Yea...Zoey definitely got the short end of the stick with genetics LOL. Shes, uh, interesting to say the least. Haha

[Dutchringgirl]

not sure if this has been mentioned but can they put up a taller fence? 4' is nothing and they will be over it in no time.

If you dont have the time to go to your parents a bunch before hand. I really feel it wont be easy and wont go well. you are bringing a dog onto their territory. if the previous two times didnt go well, then you are going to be in for a long three months and with you getting bigger, it will be harder for you.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I would take a portion of his kibble from his daily allotment and either do OB sporadically throughout the day with that (and don't worry if it's a large portion), or take half of his regular feedings (so like 2 out of the 4 cups?) and run OB drills using that and at the end he gets to eat from the bowl. Mix it up, take a larger portion one day, a smaller the next, use all of it, don't use all of it. As long as he's working for everything. Even playing asking for simple things like a sit, or a down then sit before throwing the ball. Nothing that would build frustration but mixing it up. I know Sharon has some super awesome heeling courses she does with Thor.

Place is like base, basically a spot the dog goes to and sits/lays down on until you release him. Stacy has an awesome system she uses with Tyson.

As long as the dog responds on recall it doesn't have to be a full out run towards me. However, any ignoring of commands is a no-no. Refreshing the commands with increasing distractions will help too. You may have to get more clever than him and set up "opportunities" with you seemingly "not there" for the ecollar approach. They are wicked smart. The only other thing I can think of besides an invisible fence is like cow/horse fencing. Packs a bit more of a wallop than an invisible fence but isn't lethal or any more harmful. On some of the kennel groups I'm in I see a few people use that with lower voltage that's still stronger than an invisible fence. I've never personally used it so have no idea about its ins and outs.

And Lisa may be right, Roscoe and Rufus may not get long. If they don't then it's just management and taking turns at who gets to come out. She made a good point about you getting further along in your pregnancy - Rufus may or may not become more protective of you as you get further along, which could start fights between him and Roscoe, or any other dog. Just something to keep in mind.

[Tappy4me]

No, they're only doing the 4 foot with the invisible fencing, and possibly hot tape around the top.

Neither of them acted too terribly last time, or got to threshold point.

Yea, I figured were in for a long few months. They haven't seen each other since roscoe has mellowed out. It'll just be alot of controlled OB and interactions then. Dad's building a big kennel for us to rotate them through that will be covered. Sounds like Rufus will be in his crate alot for awhile, and when he is loose in the house, roscoe will be confined to a bedroom upstairs, and vice versa.

I hate to ask, but would it be beneficial to muzzle both dogs for when we get to the point of meeting closely? Just to prevent injuries, so neither can bite the other. Rufus isn't very reactive, so if roscoe is calm hell be calm.

We were hoping to be in our new house and avoid all of this prior to the baby coming, but thanks to our land surveyor, it looks like we won't get to be in the house like we wanted.

Yea it stinks that we haven't been able to get out there with rufus and work with them both prior. Work schedules and the long drive just haven't allowed for it. I definitely would have preferred doing that.

[Tappy4me]

I would take a portion of his kibble from his daily allotment and either do OB sporadically throughout the day with that (and don't worry if it's a large portion), or take half of his regular feedings (so like 2 out of the 4 cups?) and run OB drills using that and at the end he gets to eat from the bowl. Mix it up, take a larger portion one day, a smaller the next, use all of it, don't use all of it. As long as he's working for everything. Even playing asking for simple things like a sit, or a down then sit before throwing the ball. Nothing that would build frustration but mixing it up. I know Sharon has some super awesome heeling courses she does with Thor.

Place is like base, basically a spot the dog goes to and sits/lays down on until you release him. Stacy has an awesome system she uses with Tyson.

As long as the dog responds on recall it doesn't have to be a full out run towards me. However, any ignoring of commands is a no-no. Refreshing the commands with increasing distractions will help too. You may have to get more clever than him and set up "opportunities" with you seemingly "not there" for the ecollar approach. They are wicked smart. The only other thing I can think of besides an invisible fence is like cow/horse fencing. Packs a bit more of a wallop than an invisible fence but isn't lethal or any more harmful. On some of the kennel groups I'm in I see a few people use that with lower voltage that's still stronger than an invisible fence. I've never personally used it so have no idea about its ins and outs.

And Lisa may be right, Roscoe and Rufus may not get long. If they don't then it's just management and taking turns at who gets to come out. She made a good point about you getting further along in your pregnancy - Rufus may or may not become more protective of you as you get further along, which could start fights between him and Roscoe, or any other dog. Just something to keep in mind.

He's very food motivated, so I'll definitely start doing that! He has practically zero toy drive...it's all food and praise motivation for him.

Yea, he's one of those dogs that plays dumb, but he's actually pretty smart.

That is a good point about him getting protective over me...i hadn't thought about that. Will definitely keep an eye out.

I'm hoping that they will eventually get along, but I'll happily settle for tolerating each other just being in the house. Worst case, it'll just be rotating them out.

He gets along very well with the other 2 dogs. It's just the one I'm worried about.

Thanks for all the input! Rufus used to get to go over there every time we went til Roscoe came along, so it's been really unfortunate.

[Stacy_R]

Place is a tool that many trainers use for many different reasons. I use "base," which is place, plus the concept of relative space. Place is basically a determined spot (not the crate) where your dog can either go to on his own, or where he can be put by you to think through a situation and promote relaxation. You can use anything for place: towel, carpet scrap, blanket, whatever. In simple terms, think of tag when you were a kid...base is "safe." Place is a great way to teach dogs that they CAN simply exist with one another. Google training place and I'm sure you'll find some videos, better yet, find trainers who can work with both dogs on place BEFORE you move.

[Tappy4me]

We have about 2 1/2 weeks before having to move over there. I will google it asap when I get home from work tonight! I'll have my dad start to work with roscoe on it too!

Sounds like a great thing to have taught for when our munchkin comes too!

[Tappy4me]

We are finally moved into my parents house. First re-intro of the dogs actually went better than expected. Rufus wanted to play. He was in the kennel my dad built and dad had roscoe on a leash on the outside. I think in time they'll get along.

[Dutchringgirl]

sounds great !!! Just take it slow/

[Tappy4me]

Oh we are! Dad put up a plywood divider for the upstairs so there's no chance of issues and Rufus can roam more than just the bedroom when inside if Roscoe is out too. Otherwise we're just rotating them. Giving them a chance to get each others scent slowly

[MultiPurposeK9]

Not to rain on anyone's parade and not to have any of the contributors to your thread offended you are from what you are describing in for a long and stressful time and based on your current condition along with others besides yourself participating. When visual dividers need to be put up in my experience they just never come down and as much as you would like everyone to just get along we all know it happens very infrequently they way you are hoping for. OB and place and all that are fine when training but, what about the rest of the time. The stimuli created between the two of them will be much more of a "pull" then any obedience you have done. Wishing, hoping and rotating are not fundamental ways in living with multiple K9s and sometimes as hard as we all know it is decisions have to be made.

[k9lexi]

You have great parents ... but I'm sure you already know that